"garandes," clay jars filled with inflammable liqu

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medievalevents
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"garandes," clay jars filled with inflammable liqu

Postby medievalevents » Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:44 am

Can anyone help???

Ive found loads of info about the Knights of St John and there Garandes, but am unable to find any pics, has anyone got any info of pic's of the design of these little hand held killing objects :)
"garandes," clay jars filled with inflammable liquid that would break and engulf an enemy in a bath of fire.


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Malvoisin
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Re: "garandes," clay jars filled with inflammable

Postby Malvoisin » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:09 pm

medievalevents wrote:anyone got any info of pic's of the design of these little hand held killing objects :)
"garandes," clay jars filled with inflammable liquid that would break and engulf an enemy in a bath of fire.


I think you've answered your own question. How many differnt forms can a (sealable?) clay jar come in??

And do tell exactly what info have you found? What sort of date are you talking about? Do you have the recipe for the "inflammable liquid"?

My Hospitaller friends would love to play with fire I'm sure. :)

Sorry I can't help with a pic.


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Yes

Postby medievalevents » Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:28 am

I have yes but im after a pic to get some made you see!! Here's the info I have at the moment.

In 1565, the Ottoman Turks, who had made advances across Asia, Africa and the Middle East, were looking to expand their empire into continental Europe and needed to capture Malta to do so. Some 40,000 troops attacked the island and eventually gained a foothold. However, the Knights continued to fight back, using such incendiary weapons as "garandes," clay jars filled with inflammable liquid that would break and engulf an enemy in a bath of fire. They also used "trumps," hollowed-out tubes of wood or metal filled with inflammable liquid and attached to the ends of long poles. When lit, this device became a crude flamethrower. Another weapon of choice was a burning hoop, a hoop of flexible wood wrapped in cotton or rope and soaked in a mix of such substances as rum, saltpeter and gunpowder, then lit and thrown at enemies attempting to scale the walls of a fort.


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Re: Yes

Postby Vermin » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:00 am

medievalevents wrote:such substances as rum, saltpeter and gunpowder


I'd be suprised if they had Rum in 1565 :?

I believe it comes about with mass sugar production



Daniel Ezra

Postby Daniel Ezra » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:11 am

sugar is a mediterranian plant. They may well have known of it. It only became cheap with large scale production in the Americas, but it was about, in England, before the Norman Conquest (see Pollington's book: A S Leechcraft).



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Re: Yes

Postby guthrie » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:33 pm

medievalevents wrote:I have yes but im after a pic to get some made you see!! Here's the info I have at the moment.

In 1565, the Ottoman Turks, who had made advances across Asia, Africa and the Middle East, were looking to expand their empire into continental Europe and needed to capture Malta to do so. Some 40,000 troops attacked the island and eventually gained a foothold. However, the Knights continued to fight back, using such incendiary weapons as "garandes," clay jars filled with inflammable liquid that would break and engulf an enemy in a bath of fire. They also used "trumps," hollowed-out tubes of wood or metal filled with inflammable liquid and attached to the ends of long poles. When lit, this device became a crude flamethrower. Another weapon of choice was a burning hoop, a hoop of flexible wood wrapped in cotton or rope and soaked in a mix of such substances as rum, saltpeter and gunpowder, then lit and thrown at enemies attempting to scale the walls of a fort.


Yes, thats the great siege of Malta. Best book on it is by Ernle Bradford, written back in the 60's, I have my dads copy of it.

If you want pictures of period incendiaries, youo need to look at Biringuccio's De Pyrotechnia, which has a couple of chapters on fireworks, firetubes and other fun things.
I doubt there are any other pictures available, there weren't any war correspondents at the great siege. All you need to do is make up some crude clay pots and seal them with wax.

Or what you should do is contact Maltese archaeologists and see if they have found any broken pots of the period...



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Postby Vermin » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:20 pm

Daniel Ezra wrote:sugar is a mediterranian plant. They may well have known of it. It only became cheap with large scale production in the Americas, but it was about, in England, before the Norman Conquest (see Pollington's book: A S Leechcraft).


and ? - does it therefore follow that they had rum ? :?



Daniel Ezra

Postby Daniel Ezra » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:35 pm

No, but it doesn't mean that they won't.

I will admit my knowledge of sugar cane production is not as good as I would like, but I would imagine that mollasses were a by-product even then, and in a pre-Islamic culture (not that the Arab world was at the time of the Seige of Malta) rum might well have been known.

I don't know.



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Postby Malvoisin » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:49 pm

Interesting stuff medievalevents, I was kind of hoping you'd found something new relating to the 13thC.

Rum? To burn? Were they mad?


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Postby guthrie » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:12 am

Daniel Ezra wrote:No, but it doesn't mean that they won't.

I will admit my knowledge of sugar cane production is not as good as I would like, but I would imagine that mollasses were a by-product even then, and in a pre-Islamic culture (not that the Arab world was at the time of the Seige of Malta) rum might well have been known.

I don't know.

Now, I know wikipedia isn't the best thing in the world, but it claims that the first distillation of sugar wine stuff was in the 17th century, and that MArco Polo had some sort of wine of sugar in the 14th century in what we call Iran.

From my own knowledge of distillation, that of alcohol was really creeping into public knowledge around the late 15th/ early 16th century. Biringuccio, printed in 1540, talks about alcohol as a medicine, which accords with what it was known to be used for at the time. No mention of using it as an inflammable substance. Remember at this time it was quite a tricky and expensive thing to make, they didn't have 3 metre high distillation columns made of copper.

WE can be fairly sure that the knowledge was around, but as for making large scale amounts of it and using it for incendiaries, there is no evidence so far and I would say it was very very unlikely given the state of the art of the time.



Daniel Ezra

Postby Daniel Ezra » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:48 am

I'm going to post a querey on the food forum about distilation.



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Postby guthrie » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:07 pm

You don't need to, just ask me...

What do you want to know about it? Alchemists were definitely distilling alcohol by the early 14th century, for example John of Rupescisas quintessence was made from multiply distilled alcohol. By 1393 the Goodman of paris was recomending a lead alembic for distilling flower oils, showing that simple distillation was spreading across Europe by that time, but it was well acknowledged that alcohol was a tricky substance to distill because of it being so easily vaoprised and therefore it required a further cooling step. At the same time Chaucers Canions Yeoman was mentioning alembics etc.

James the 4th of Scotland had whisky around 1500. Various monks were distilling alcoholic beverages for themselves all during the 15th century, and I am sure I have come across mention of it as something being sold, firstly as medicine then as a drink, during that period.

On further reading, Biringuccio uses aqua vitae in some of his incendiary compositions. So it was used for weapons at that time. The difficulty being tying that in with the evidence available for the meditteranean of the period.



Daniel Ezra

Postby Daniel Ezra » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:44 pm

So, as someone who likes the odd drop of whisky (Islay, single malt if any one is offering) and a drop of the odd rum (Guadaloupe if I can get it, Martinique if not), which period should I do to be allowed an aufenti-tipple?



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Postby guthrie » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:48 pm

For the whisky, try the 16th century onwards, albeit only for high status during the 16th, and slowly lower status through to the 18th century when everyone was doing it.

Rum, no idea.

If I knew you meant for drinking, carry on and post in the food section. I only know about the more industrial uses.



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Postby gregory23b » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:32 pm

"sugar is a mediterranian plant. They may well have known of it. It only became cheap with large scale production in the Americas, but it was about, in England, before the Norman Conquest (see Pollington's book: A S Leechcraft)."

Sugar cain is native to New Guinea apparently, but well known in Europe in the middle ages, sold in sugar loaf or candy form, not as processed as today's, less intense sweetness.

As for rum, no idea, as for alcohol, certainly, recipes for aqua vitae predate the 1560s by some couple of hundred or so years. I have recently read a recipe for distilled herbs in wine as a medicinal tonic, not in a medical book though, mid 15thc. Medical books talk about aqua vitae as a medicine as well.

There are other flammable materials, spirit of turpentine is very volatile, again well known, certainly to painters as a thinner and drying agent.

My info comes from different but allied sources to Guthers, he who must immolate all he sees.


"which period should I do to be allowed an aufenti-tipple?"

ABSOLUTELY 18thc, because the kit associated is the canine's cojones ;-)


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Postby Hobbitstomper » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:06 pm

The book "The Crusades and The Holy Land" (Tempus I think) has pictures of incendary stuff from a period book.



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:06 am

And Seige and Seigecraft.


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Postby The Iron Dwarf » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:32 pm

I think if you were under siege and wanted to make things like this you would use any suitable pots you had rather than making some specifically for it



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Postby Foxe » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:14 pm

FWIW Ned Ward wrote in the 1690s that sailors wouldn't touch rum if they could get brandy - rum was a landlubbery drink.

There is also an Osprey on the Great Siege, can't remember if it's any good...


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