Teach Yourself Old English

Historic questions, thoughts and other interesting stuff

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Mordengaard
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Teach Yourself Old English

Postby Mordengaard » Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:16 pm

Has anyone come across/used/heard of this?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Teach-Yourself- ... 0340915056
Figured it might be a nice resource for the Living History guys...


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ViscontesseD'Asbeau
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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:33 pm

Never heard of him or it.

Steve Pollington's books are very good for the autodidact, I guess. And the Bill Griffiths word hoard is a nice thing.



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Alan E
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Postby Alan E » Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:59 pm

ViscontesseD'Asbeau wrote:Never heard of him or it.
....


Can't be any good then :?:

A quick use of available technology identifies a Dr Mark Atherton as "a tutor in Old and Middle English at Regent's Park College, Oxford."
here: http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=9780071485197
here: http://www.ox.ac.uk/gazette/2006-7/week ... 7/lecs.htm
here: http://www.rpc.ox.ac.uk/rn/Report07.pdf

This chap (?) apparently recommends it http://miglior-acque.blogspot.com/2006/ ... -old.html; me, I'd have no idea.


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Kate Tiler
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Postby Kate Tiler » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:48 pm

Thanks for posting this link, I went straight online & bought it as well as an old english dictionary & both arrived this morning - very much looking forward to listening to the text read on the CD - will let you know what we think!


http://www.katetiler.co.uk
http://www.companyofartisans.co.uk
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Brother Ranulf
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Postby Brother Ranulf » Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 am

Having read the write-ups on this product it does look like a reasonable attempt to make the language more accessible to people outside universities, which can only be a good thing.

Several notes of caution, however:

No two linguists will agree today on the "correct" pronunciation of certain combinations of vowel and consonant sounds in OE, since there is nothing with which to confirm it. All we have today is a rough approximation of how the language sounded, definitely not the exact pronunciation (it was in any case subject to regional dialects).

Some of the descriptions applied to OE sounds can be a tad confusing if you are not used to learning Germanic languages:

"Old English had two distinct dipthongs, with four vowel sounds because of length. They were éa, ea, éo, eo. The 'ea' series was a long or short 'æ' sound followed by a schwa off-glide. The 'eo' series had a long or short 'e' sound also followed by a schwa. This schwa must be distinct for comprehension purposes, but the stress falls on the initial letter of the dipthong."

This is supposed to be modern English and comprehensible . . . and of course it is for anyone with previous experience in linguistic terminology, but perhaps less so for a complete novice.

By all means go for the "teach yourself" approach, but don't depend entirely on it; I taught myself to speak "Nihongo" in a similar way courtesy of the BBC, but had access to real Japanese speakers to confirm points of pronunciation and grammar.


Brother Ranulf

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ViscontesseD'Asbeau
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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:51 pm

Steve Pollington's First Steps in OE is a nice starting point. He has some audio stuff out too so you can hear how it's pronounced.

Haven't heard of this one you mention, so don't want to say owt. Could be good could be terrible, could be anything inbetween! The Gesithas website forums may have someone who knows more and can give you some advice re. that book.

The standard academic one now is the Mitchell & Robinson which is excellent but not massively appetising for a beginner who does not have access to a university dept and I wouldn't recommend it now Pollington is out there... I learned the old way with Sweet, which is not to be recommended to any but the masochistic. It's how university students learned OE for around 100 years but luckily better stuff is now there.

Would recommend Pollington as making the grammar side, in particular, pretty clear. Bill Griffith's little word hoard is nice for vocab too and you can find the definitive OE dictionary, Bosworth-Toller, online.

A great website for learning OE is the Old English Aerobics site, some US university I forget which but it's brilliant for building vocab and also makes the grammar clear.

http://faculty.virginia.edu/OldEnglish/OEA/

Can't comment on their pronunciation as I never have sounds on my machines. As it's US, I wouldn't trust it!



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Postby Aelfcyn » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:38 pm

I've gone ahead and ordered that one off amazon, it had good reviews.

also, if anyone's interested and hasn't already heard of them, the Engliscan Gesithas do a course for members, "for a modest fee" ( don't know what that is )

www.tha-engliscan-gesithas.co.uk



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ViscontesseD'Asbeau
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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:51 pm

AElfcynn, what do you think of it?



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Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:38 am

Maybe a class at the Boot Camp might go down well!!


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Postby Kate Tiler » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:57 am

Charlie is enjoying working his way through the one we bought from the link - he says it is hard work, but it uses a good choice of texts, with a varied selection. - It uses both religious and secular, historical and poetry - a broad selection from surviving Anglo-Saxon literature.

It's a very enjoyable course - not easy but enjoyable. I think he is finding it a good progression from an online course that he looked at a few years ago, this takes it on another level. I'm enjoying listening to the texts in the background!


http://www.katetiler.co.uk

http://www.companyofartisans.co.uk

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Hraefn
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Postby Hraefn » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:05 am

Anglo-Saxon Aloud
A daily reading of the entire Anglo-Saxon Poetic Records,which includes all poems written in Old English.

http://fred.wheatonma.edu/wordpressmu/mdrout


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Postby Brother Ranulf » Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:16 am

I particularly liked "Against a Dwarf", although I seldom have need of it . . . no sign of Hrodulf, I notice :(


Brother Ranulf



"Patres nostri et nos hanc insulam in brevi edomuimus in brevi nostris subdidimus legibus, nostris obsequiis mancipavimus" - Walter Espec 1138

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ViscontesseD'Asbeau
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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:59 pm

Ooh thanks for that Hræfn.

Ooh just listened - that's very ... transtatlantic that accent! He's also mispronouncing a couple of things - the 'Ȝ' sound he's doing as a hard 'g' like in Mdn English which is a bit of a screaming boo boo.

Fun though and I will listen a lot simply to hear the Old English spoken albeit in a funny accent.

(But those of you learning go find an English person to teach you how to pronounce it don;t do it like this... or you'll sound like John Wayne Meets Gimli which is not entirely wonderful....)



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Hraefn
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Postby Hraefn » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:33 pm

Yog is an odd'n,
in the recipes (albeit 14th & 15thC not Anglo Saxon)I've been reading it gets used for all sorts of back of the throat/nasally sounds:
y in 'Ȝolkus/Ȝelkes of ayren' and 'icoloured Ȝeolue' and 'Þou miht holden Þurh alle Ȝer'
i/y in'Ȝef Þou nast non oÞur sucre'
g 'soÞÞen yhonged in an touwayl aȜain Þe zunne'
gh ‘wan yt is ynouȜ’ and ‘whan it crase noȜt Þan it is inow’ ‘alle niȜte’
Then you get ‘but loke Ȝe make Þem noȜt in no moyste weder'.
Heigh ho.


That's my score to date. Three. I haven't killed anybody for years, and don't intend to ever again.'

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ViscontesseD'Asbeau
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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:02 pm

Yog is an odd'n,
in the recipes (albeit 14th & 15thC not Anglo Saxon)I've been reading it gets used for all sorts of back of the throat/nasally sounds:
y in 'Ȝolkus/Ȝelkes of ayren' and 'icoloured Ȝeolue' and 'Þou miht holden Þurh alle Ȝer'
i/y in'Ȝef Þou nast non oÞur sucre'
g 'soÞÞen Ȝolkus in an touwayl aȜain Þe zunne'
gh ‘wan yt is ynouȜ’ and ‘whan it crase noȜt Þan it is inow’ ‘alle niȜte’
Then you get ‘but loke Ȝe make Þem noȜt in no moyste weder'.
Heigh ho.


Ȝ generally a (hard to convey) 'huh'/'yuh' blended together. Not a modern 'y' and not a 'h' either.

In words like Ȝef and say, Ȝet (gate) it became a hard 'g' in later English.

In words like Ȝolkus, it became a 'y' in later English. In OE - it was a sort of conflation of the two!

In yhonged, is often rendered in OE *ge-<verb>* which is pronounced again that huh/yuh sound in OE but later mutates... to a sort of 'eeeee.'.. <verb> But in OE it is never that sound, or close to it. It's a huh/yuh all run together.

The apparent inconcistencies you're seeing are not relevant as they are Middle English by which time all these sounds have shifted but not yet got fixed where they are now... so some become the hard 'guh' sound, some the 'yuh' and some fall right off the language (as in the ge- prefix to verbs). So don't draw any conclusions re. OE from Middle English examples - they tell you nowt at all! In OE, the Ȝ is a sort of h AND y sound run together we no longer have at all. Some became 'g', some 'y'. But at a much later date!

Hope that clarifies for those who are into it!

:D




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