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jelayemprins
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Another sensitive subject

Postby jelayemprins » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:56 pm

The use of Amputees in re-enactment .

We all know we live in a sanitised world where we are as far removed from the nastier reality lurking behind the wall.

I was contacted again today by an amazing guy- 20 years ago he suffered a double amputation [one arm & one leg]

He is offering, as part of his approach to tackling such injuries, to take part in re-enactments of surgery and war wounds/outcomes of torture. He's also attepting to get a pilots licence- quite a lesson for us moaning types.

I would really like your thoughts on this ' as a collective forum' because it should be done- but can it overcome all the hurdles and obstacles that will undoubtedly appear?

Appreciate your thoughts as always.

jelayemp..


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Postby lucy the tudor » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:15 pm

We have a Kentwellie who has a lot of one arm missing, lovely chap, he shot it off with a cannon in France apparently. Visitors love the story but don't seem to believe it- can't win, we feed them so much pretend stuff that when reality bites they don't recognise it...
Well, I believe it's true anyway- very definitely shorter arm ! He seems far too decent a chap to have told me porkies.
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Postby Eve » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:21 pm

What period is he thinking of re-enacting?

I know a good surgeon/torturer who may like to have a client lying around - only problem would be the look of the stumps - different techniques were used to amputate & the look might be wrong. However, your friend might want to research the life of a double amputee in the past & talk about that to the public.

There was a Scottish guy who made musket balls on LH camps in the SK who, I think, was a double amputee.


Personally, I think these issues should be tackled but it would need a brave person to confront the MOPs head-on with something they may find difficult.

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Postby Annis » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:29 pm

lucy the tudor wrote:We have a Kentwellie who has a lot of one arm missing, lovely chap, he shot it off with a cannon in France apparently. Visitors love the story but don't seem to believe it- can't win, we feed them so much pretend stuff that when reality bites they don't recognise it...
Well, I believe it's true anyway- very definitely shorter arm ! He seems far too decent a chap to have told me porkies.
Lucy


Same story that I've heard.


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Postby Simon_Diment » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:31 pm

lucy the tudor
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject:
We have a Kentwellie who has a lot of one arm missing, lovely chap, he shot it off with a cannon in France apparently. Visitors love the story but don't seem to believe it- can't win, we feed them so much pretend stuff that when reality bites they don't recognise it...
Well, I believe it's true anyway- very definitely shorter arm ! He seems far too decent a chap to have told me porkies.


That sounds like Mr. Perry to me, one of the very talented twins who design a lot of games miniatures, if it is it's all true - he did get it blown off by a cannon whilst in France.

Last time I saw him he had a buckler strapped to the stump and was chasing after a mounted knight.


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Postby Annis » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:34 pm

Yes, that's him.


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Postby lucy the tudor » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:32 pm

See, so many of you were fitted with full memories, I can get aaway with using yours to supplement my partial one...

On the original subject- There is enough shock for most MOPs in the limb being missing, without going too gory with the exact nature of the stumps, I think they may find it a bit too honest .
Not that there is anything wrong in showing stumps per se, but I have run alongside amputees in a lot of races, and it is amazing how people are so nervous about even mentioning the false limb. Some of these are works of art and it seems churlish not to comment on their decoration, as their owner cruises past you at speed and hares off into the middle distance.
Good taste and tact are very personal things, and whilst we seek to inform and educate, too much is always a risky line to draw.
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Postby Pilsbury » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:45 pm

If the guy wants to be part of it then I dont see a problem of finding him a role that he wants to play, I heard that the film Saving Private Ryan used many amputees in its opening scenes for realisam so why not for the re-enactment groups



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Postby lucy the tudor » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:36 am

Just in case I have sounded unenthusiastic- I DO really think this chap could be an absolute asset, stumps used definitely, if he is comfortable with that, but used tactfully...
Lucy


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Postby gregory23b » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:55 am

He could choose to be anythign he liked, before the days of nationalised welfare the only thing stopping you earning a living was your ability to work, if by losing an arm you still could then you did, if not then you starved or tried to do somethign else.

He has the core for some very interesting portrayals making interesting parallels between then and now, from wealthy injured to poor injured etc.

"but can it overcome all the hurdles and obstacles that will undoubtedly appear? "

Such as? if it is a case of surgery displays then the have been going for years, Vic Shreeves did an interesting leg removal, with blood filled leg, I know of someone who cauterised some pork placed as a 'wound'.

If it is a case of fighting etc then that is down to the group head, it may be ok in some circumstances it may be deemed not, but I hear (yet to track it down) of a Paston tenant who was an amputee - both hands who wanted to man a crossbow and do his bit.

If it is a case of being an amputee then any other issues are usually down to the observer not the amputee.

Fair play to him for looking at reenactment as a form of therapy/rehab, he may have a point.


Annis - yes Mike did lose his arm to a cannon incident, in France, at Crecy as it happens.


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Postby Mick,M » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:18 am

That would be mr Perry, that story is very ture, I was there at the time, trust mike to take living history to a haert, thanks to him and his stump we nearly got kicked out of the pub at old sarum heee heeh hee
say hi to him for mick and rae when you see him
Last edited by Mick,M on Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby The Methley Archer » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:11 pm

Annis - yes Mike did lose his arm to a cannon incident, in France, at Crecy as it happens.


How old is he!!! :shock:


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Postby Chris, yclept John Barber » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:46 pm

During a Murder Mystery, I was talking about how Ed, one of the 'suspects', used to be in line to take over as the Captain, up till the Battle of Barnet. Of course, that wasn't possible now...

One of the MOPs asked "Why not?" I just turned and looked at Ed, then back at the MOP till I saw his face register the fact that the seated man he'd been talking to for the past five minutes only had one leg. His face was priceless!

Ed also did a good double-act with a particularly 'bad archer' in the show. The archer would attempt to copy a 'better archer''s feat of shooting two arrows at once, but do a sleight-of-hand with one of them so that only one actually left the bow and hit the target. Ed would then walk out with an arrow sticking through his leg, cursing at the shooter.

Of course, the audience always thought that it was a stunt 'round the leg' arrow, and laughed. Then Ed pulled the perfectly straight arrow out through his leg...


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Postby gregory23b » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:24 pm

TMA
"How old is he!!! "
in his late 40s ;-)


It was at an event, but the odd thing, as always with the Perrys is that there was a spooky story attached to his accident, Crecy field and a pair of twins that were supposed to have been at the battle of Crecy (original)....

Mick have you heard that story?



They may well descend on Kelmarsh, I had them for ages last year.


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Postby Scottish Lady » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:48 pm

We have a guy in Fraser's who although not an amputee, has lost the use of both legs. He attends most of our events and takes on the role of making musket balls, as well as firing the odd pistol. He's also our adjutant/treasurer, and quite frankly we'd be lost without him.
I also think I'm right in saying, that there is a guy somewhere in the Jacobite re-enactment scene, who has a partial arm amputation. At the Culloden filming last year, he had it 'made up' to look newly done, so to speak. One guy went up to him and told him how realistic it looked!


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Postby Mick,M » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:17 pm

Not heard that one but the was some weird stuff going on at that do,
Rae and Annis spent a lot of time at hospital with various folks from other groups as they speak the lingo very well



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Postby Brother-Knight » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:42 pm

Would that be Mr Perry as in one of Gamesworkshops core miniature designers???

I think the use of amputees is a great idea, when I was in the army we were using them to simulate casualties in exercise scenarios, added to the realism extensively. Plus they were all really good guys and girls!


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Postby Nigel » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:26 pm

Brother-Knight wrote:Would that be Mr Perry as in one of Gamesworkshops core miniature designers???

I think the use of amputees is a great idea, when I was in the army we were using them to simulate casualties in exercise scenarios, added to the realism extensively. Plus they were all really good guys and girls!


YES bk There are some interesting people in thsi hobby some for excellent reasons like the Perrys who cost me a bloody fortune every year
Folks like Jorge there who I hope has finished my latest commission

And other folks who are not so wonderful


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby gregory23b » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:55 pm

Commission? who me? if you mean that thing I was sent via pm I had some questions which I pmed to you ages ago....ooer
if not then phew


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Postby Nigel » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:15 pm

my bad I jsut assumed you were on with it consider it confirmed


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Postby gregory23b » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:35 pm

read my pm, I had questions re it.
;-)


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Postby myladyswardrobe » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:55 pm

Just to add to the general chorus of "yes, it was Michael Perry of the Games Workshop who lost his arm by a canon at Crecy".

When Michael took part in Kentwell as Master Sawcer the Tailor, for the first time 2 years ago with Ninya (Mikhaila of Tudor Tailor), he did ask what he should say about why he had one arm!

We all looked at him daft! Here was someone in the re-enactment world who had genuinely lost his arm as per someone of the contemporary time may have done and he was wondering what story to tell??? Ok, not a form of method acting one would recommend but it was a genuine reason!!

I worked with Michael and Ninya in their Tailor's shop in Kentwell for the past two years and it was hilarious listening to the stories Michael was giving as to why he had lost his arm:

1. The genuine true story (altered very slightly for the Tudor year as opposed to being in Crecy) - no one believed it!
2. He was working as a tailor in a war for Queen Mary Tudor in Calais and was repairing a garment when a canon ball whizzed through the tent taking his hand off!
3. He was on a ship and got shipwrecked and had his hand bitten off by a sea monster.
4. He was cutting fabric using his left hand with the huge cutting shears and the scissors slipped and cut his right arm. It was so badly damaged that it had to be cut off. This is the one the kids believed!!

It was a lot of fun working with him and Ninya. When my husband Edmund and I stayed with Michael and Ninya one weekend, he did tell us the story of something a bit wierd concerning twins and Crecy and "ghosts" but I forget the details. It was spooky though.

However what was even more spooky and amazing was what happened with his use of hands. He was VERY right handed. After the accident he said it was like a flip switch in the brain. Whatever he could do with his right hand he could do perfectly with his left hand. Which must have been a relief bearing in mind what he does as a living!

Michael is a perfect example of how an amputee can work perfectly within the re-enactment world.

Personally, I think it comes down to the attitude of the amputee. If they have the "want and will" to take part as per the ethos of the re-enactment group then I say go for it! Other re-enactors and the public will have a richer experience because of it.

all the best

Bess


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Postby Hraefn » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:50 pm

So is the one about the Perrys switching which one of them was in the hospital bed and freaking all the nurses out with a 'regrown' arm true?


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Postby nix » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:04 am

has he tried getting in touch with amputies in action, they do a lot of film and first aid work.


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Postby gregory23b » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:32 pm

Nix, Mike Perry is about as busy as a person can get, he makes very popular miniatures, some LOTR film models as well.

I gather he did have a small part in Band of Brothers, but it ended up cut.


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Postby myladyswardrobe » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:21 pm

He is certainly busy.

Michael has been at the forefront of most of the LOTR figures/models with Alan.

Both of them and two others from the Games Workshop were extras in the Return of the King (extended version). They were all wounded/dead Riders of Rohan on the Pelennor Fields when Peter did some of the pick-up filming.
It is a blink and you miss. They are seen on the ground around Meriadoc when he is found by Pippin after the battle.

Otherwise, look at this shot of them all in costume from the Perry brother's website: http://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/peterphoto2.jpg

Spot which one is Michael!

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Postby gregory23b » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:36 pm

The thing is they are both so hideously ugly that Jackson rightly made their part fleeting, it was only right and proper to spare us.

Although it was generous of Mr J to give Mike some hair.


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