Sticky Stuff

Historic questions, thoughts and other interesting stuff

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eeyore
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Sticky Stuff

Postby eeyore » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:45 pm

I'm trying to get info on authentic/natural glues, dyes,stains,oils,finishes etc., basically anything that sticks, colours or seals things, not only what they are and what they're used on, but how to make them. Can anyone help?
Cheers.



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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:43 pm

Which periods?

Authentic to when and what?

Narrow it down a tad and we might offer some crumbs.


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Kate Tiler
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Postby Kate Tiler » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:55 pm

Lots of useful stuff in 'Formulas for Painters' which I have a copy of - never used in anger but is a vital part of my 'might come in useful one day' shelf

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Formulas-Painte ... 214&sr=8-1


http://www.katetiler.co.uk
http://www.companyofartisans.co.uk
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eeyore
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Postby eeyore » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:00 pm

Any period from then till now, whatever that covers!. If something is period specific then I'll be glad for that info as well. As to 'authentic', that means that it was used in whatever period. I'm probably rambling, but I just need as much as I can get up to when modern stuff, eg. pva etc, came into being. That probably clarifies it as much as kicking up mud!!!!
Cheers.



eeyore
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Postby eeyore » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:01 pm

Hi Kate, I'll have a look at that, thanks.



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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:54 am

That is a huge list of options, we could go from apparent neolithic use of resins to modern chemical glues.

Massey is alright but is not comprehensive enough and only has 100, many of which are modern and then derivations on a theme, a lot are grounds too.

In all seriousness you need to be more specific, otherwise it is a piece of string question, or a long piece of stretched out copydex. Like anything there are changes of use, reuse, substitution, abandonment.

You will need to look at books ranging from
Mappa Clavicula - if not much earlier like Pliny
to Diverse Arts
to Cennini
to Hilyard
to Diderot
to Moxon
to any of the writers on woodworking - for stains

What are you gluing?
fabric to wood
wood to wood
paper to wood
paper to paper
paper to fabric
glass to glass
etc

Hence my probe.


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Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

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Brother Ranulf
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Postby Brother Ranulf » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:15 am

For the 12th century I look to the writings of Alexander Neckham, one of life's observers into all manner of technical stuff. He enjoyed making lists of pretty much everything, often going into the detail of how things were made.

He often mentions casein glue which I believe is produced from cheese, stating that it makes an extremely strong bond if kept dry - therefore unsuitable for outdoor applications. Talking about an enormous musical organ (two players at the keyboard, up to four people on the bellows) he states that the bellows were of wood with pleated sides of heavy linen glued with casein.

I know that hoof and horn glue was produced in another typically smelly 12th century industrial process - England must have been an incredibly stinky place at the time.

Hide glue was used in bookbinding and other applications where leather is glued, such as shields. I understand that hide glue is traditionally used for musical instrument construction (viols, rebecs and so on) as it has no adverse impact on the resonance of the instrument (unlike modern adhesives).


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Eric the well read
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Postby Eric the well read » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:24 am

Brother Ranulf wrote: I understand that hide glue is traditionally used for musical instrument construction (viols, rebecs and so on) as it has no adverse impact on the resonance of the instrument (unlike modern adhesives).


...and still commercially available, as is fish glue.

Regards
Eric



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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:30 pm



middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

eeyore
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Postby eeyore » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:08 pm

Why be serious? Fed up, miserable, angry, totally p****d off, yes, Serious, no.
I know it's a vast subject, but had to start somewhere.
As to what I want to stick :- yes,yes,yes,yes,yes,yes and more besides. Basically I'm trying to research any and all ways to sticks things to other things, change the colour of things etc, etc, etc., all pre 'modern' chemical stuff. I know it's all chemical in one way or another, but you know what I mean
I've already got info on how to make hide and fish glue ( as opposed to hide and seek glue, that's really hard to find).
That link to the previous forums is really useful, and thanks all for the stuff so far, anything else will be greatly appreciated.
I think this really should have been under ' Help and Advice' but I'm new to this and put it in the wrong category, anyone know how to move it?



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Kate Tiler
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Postby Kate Tiler » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:45 pm

I can move it to either General History or perhaps Creative Works - you choose! Those are the two most suitable looking areas :)

I know what you mean eeyore, sometimes you just want to start with - tell me everything about everything! Because you don't know what you'll later want to discard! Or what might seem vital as you go along.

Getting the book down from the shelf it has 6 adhesive recipes, 12 for size, 28 varnishes, 10 fixatives (including one from skimmed milk!) and 9 glazes, as well as recipes for paint, grounds and mediums.

Some of them though, although it was written in the 1960's, have Lead White used without apparently any warning with it... and I'm sure that some of the volatile ones don't have a little 'whoomph!' symbol next to them either, to remind you not to light up your Embassy No.10 while mixing them :)


http://www.katetiler.co.uk

http://www.companyofartisans.co.uk

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gregory23b
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Postby gregory23b » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:50 pm

"Why be serious?"

Because that might actually ensure you get what you want?

Put another way, if someone asked 'tell me about clothes in history' what do you think the answers would be?

If you start from a (any) point you can be referred to others, it also actually helps people offer you the info you want, without trying to guess or wait for someone else to answer.

Suggest starting with earliest documentation, as listed, work from there. You will find a lot of the same things, animal glues go back to prehistory, casein (cheese) glues are also very old. You get variants on a theme that may or may not occur all the time, eg modern (last hundred years or so) rabbit skin glue is not from the same source as most other animal glues. So if you were trying to represent medieval animal glue you would not use that, although in essence it is still gelatin/callegen/chondrin, except that it stinks and is not as clean as fish glue or leaf gelatine.

Certainly start with Cennini - circa late 14thc as he talks about:
gums (water based)
resins - oil based
oil
casein glues
composites (to mend glass or stone)
paste - starch


google, or would that be gluegle is your friend.


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

eeyore
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Postby eeyore » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:51 pm

Hi Kate, I think Skills - General history might be better? I'll leave it up to you, what you think best. You've been through the same thing, knowing what you want but not knowing the right question to ask? You hit the nail on the head. I'll definitely try to get a copy of that book, it's a starting point.
Hi Gregory, I apologise for being flippant about 'serious', not used to open forum,and people not understanding my sense of humour ( such as it is).
I'm serious about this subject and really want to find out as much as I can, just thought I'd start with a general question, then narrow it down after that. I've had a good start so far.
Thanks everyone, keerp it coming.



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Pete the Pong
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Postby Pete the Pong » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:22 am

Shameless plug, but if you need the natural resins and gums -we at Pan's Pantry stock most of them.
Whenever possible we carry the unrefined version, ie "red" Gum Tragacanth as opposed to the purified white powder!


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Yes -I firmly believe in the healing power of herbal remedies.
So much so that I insist on taking at least three or more pints of the Sacred Malted Medicine each and every night.

eeyore
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Postby eeyore » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:45 pm

There's nothing wrong with shameless plugs! It'll be quite some time before I'm ready for any of that, but when I am I'll be back to you. Any info on how to use it and what for would be handy too.
Cheers.



m300572
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Postby m300572 » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:10 pm

Dunno where my earlier post went - the e-badger must have taken it off and shredded it for virtual badger nesting material.

The gist of it was that I have a 1945 book of 'Trade Secrets' (not that secret after publication perhaps). It has 25 pages of assorted adhesives, ten or so of paints and half a dozen on varnishes - if I ever get time in the office I could probably copy them and send if they would help.


Wilkes and Liberty, Wilkes and the Forty Five

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Annie the Pedlar
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Postby Annie the Pedlar » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:30 pm

The Dyer's Companion by Elija Bemiss published in 1798 has recipes for wood stains and glues as well as dyes and a lot more.
My other favourite book is a 1920/30s DIY book. It's like household management extraordinaire and weighs a ton. It's worth trawling secondhand bookshops for these 'little' gems.



eeyore
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Postby eeyore » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:57 pm

Thanks Annie, I'll look out for those.

Is m your first name and 300572 your surname? Anyway, everyone knows it's not the e badgers, it's the pixies, the same ones who move stuff when I put it down, then put it back in the same place when I've spent two weeks looking for it!!!! That'd be great if you could copy that. I don't know if you wanted to post it ( that's as in royal mail, not posted on here. Get's confusing sometimes, but then it doesn't take much with me), or if you wanted to e mail, PM me and I'll give you my address.



m300572
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Postby m300572 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:01 am

Its a computer thing!

pm me an address and I will try and remember to take the book into the office and copy the relevant bits - I'm less organised than usual (I'm normally in a state of chaos so its worse) as the result of the new addition to the family coming home yesterday so sleep deprivation will be a major factor in me getting anything done for the next year probably!.


Wilkes and Liberty, Wilkes and the Forty Five

eeyore
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Postby eeyore » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:36 pm

If it's anything like ours sleep deprivation is a lot longer than that, they're 20 and 22 and it's still going on! Hope that's cheered you up? I'll PM the address now. There's no rush, it's going to take a long time to get all the info together anyway, even longer to do anything much with it, it's a huge subject.



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Mad Monk of Mitcham
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Postby Mad Monk of Mitcham » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:14 pm

Article on Roman glue used to stick silver laurel leaves to helmets:

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article3226417.ece



eeyore
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Postby eeyore » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:45 pm

That's great, thanks. This is just the sort of thing I'm after . I'll let them know if I get something to work! :)
Keep it coming everyone.
Cheers.




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