Richard 3 and weird fandom

Historic questions, thoughts and other interesting stuff

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ViscontesseD'Asbeau
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Richard 3 and weird fandom

Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:15 pm

Watched 'Misery' last night, the one where the writer is imprisoned by his 'No 1 Fan'. And it got me to thinking....

What is it about certain historical/literary figures that attracts er how to say this politely?... Nutjobs.

I read somewhere that, re. writers, Emily Bronte scores high on the weirdometer - attracting what are called I forget but it's summat like 'soul mate egotists' - people who read everything she ever wrote and think it's uniquely speaking to them; that they are somehow her 'soul mate'.

In history the prime target seems to be Dick 3 - whole societies of people formed to say *He wasn't really that naughty*. (Wonder if Fred West will get his apologists in the future?) And, if you read some of the things published in the Dicky 'fanzines', very little seems to have any academic rigour or weight to it, but much consists of this strange idolatry. Worser Half tells me it's usually 'women of a Certain Age' but I'm of that age and don't see the appeal myself.

A couple of years back, some new 15thC re-enactor (female of a Certain Age) pulled me to one side and confessed she felt she was the reincarnation of Dick. I kept a very straight face but promptly told everyone within a 10 mile radius, but strangely it didn't shoot her credibility amongst anyone but the more intelligent. WOuldn't go to events she thought were 'disrespectful' to her hero, does things on his birthday etc etc. Seriously creepy stuff. She went on to have a pretty similar effect on people Dick seems to have had, so who knows - maybe she had a point... :lol:

What is it about certain historical figures that attracts this soul mate egotism thing, where the 'No 1 Fans' are vying to prove the adored one wasn't really a bad lad, and had his good points, and anyway there's no forensics or proof etc etc...

But why him? Is it the 'bad boy' thing? Is he a sort of historical Heathcliff? (Again I don't see it myself but there you go...)

I'm sure other historical characters also attract a certain no of No 1 Fans but Henry 8 for example doesn't have a queue of groupies. What;'s that all about then?



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Postby gregory23b » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:35 pm

Dick, the hunchbacked, maniacal, power hungry, nephew killing turd is an anti-hero. Why worship some bloke that was not strong enough to hold on to his throne for more than a couple of years, who had so little impact on the nation, other than as some weird maligned fantasy figure? beats me.

Why is it that those who beleive in past lives were always:

Cleopatra
Julius Caesar
Richard the III
or a beautiful Victorian girl who dies of TB in a stately home, all alone with heaps of unrequited love.

and not

hattie jacques
some bloke/blokette
chav

it is always really important and/or romantic figures in history, not toilet cleaners or shoemakers.


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Postby Hobbitstomper » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:47 pm

Druids, druids and more druids.
Elanor of Aquitaine.
Robin Hood.
Some more druids.
Joan of Arc.
....

And for the never used list:
King William
King Aethelred the Unready
King John



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:39 pm

I used to believe in reincarnation in a preivious life, not this one.


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Postby BigM » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:51 am

Being a lad of larger dimensions I have always thought that I may be the reincarnation of Hattie Jacques. I am disturbingly comfortable in a hospital setting and feel a constant need to discipline Barbara Windsor.

I hate to prolong any steriotypes, but although Henry VIII has the bad boy image he was and will always remain a ginge in the eyes of 'women of a certain age'.

Seriously, I think people see something of themselves in their idol (whether real or imagined) and as well as empathising with them feel that that person would understand them too. This seems particularly true of authors, maybe because in writing they lay some of their emotions bare on the page. There is often an element of tragedy in the idols life too, which lends romance, mystery and interest. When they have a personality that swings between mean and moody and sweetness and light there is an excitement, tension. How many have had a fiery relationship where they wish they could rid their partner of the meanness but at the same time find it exciting and sexy. It seems to me that the whole issue is about as complicated as you can get.

My guess would be that the only way to find out Dicks appeal would be to ask a woman of a certain age. Not ask if she is a reincarnation, or if she has historical evidence but ask how she feels about him.

Each to their own I say. If someone idolises Richard III who am I to be critical? I have no rational reason for running around in medieval clothing on weekends. I love it but I am sure lots of people see me and think 'weirdo'. Then again, maybe its not the medieval clothing..............

M



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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:53 pm

I've been known to run round in strange clothing for years but still don't class myself as a weirdo... :lol: I'm not on about people who like or are interested in Dick 3 - I mean people who are so crazy they think they are him or his mrs, or whatever and why is it only a select few historical/literary figures seem to be loon magnets?

And what on earth could anyone see in a rich, ugly serial killer that the identified with and saw in themselves? That's one scary person who can identify with that, no?

I mean, Henry VIII was ginger and a bit on the portly side, but of course he was a looker and an athlete when he was younger... Which is the same as Dick 3, not really having the embarrassing hair do and the hunchback (all Holinshead's/Shakespeare's fault and actually he was quite presentable, etc etc). Both are unattractive bad boys but only one pulls the birds. (Well Henry pulled 6, I know but I mean posthumously)... All things being equal (fat and ginger versus page boy hair do and hunchback), why don't Henry get the stalkers? Also, killing inconvenient wives while not entirely understandable, has its own inherent logic... But cute little princes in the tower? That's far worse! How come Henry doesn't have the same sort of mad eyed fans as Dick?

PS: I'm horribly aware this is politically incorrect. And I don't mind ginger or fat, in fact I love ginger and I have been known to be not entirely size 8 all my life myself.... yet I do think the page boy hair do is unforgiveable as that was by choice, not birth....



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Postby gregory23b » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:51 pm

"yet I do think the page boy hair do is unforgiveable as that was by choice, not birth...."

LOLO


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Postby Theotherone » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:45 pm

ViscontesseD'Asbeau wrote: why is it only a select few historical/literary figures seem to be loon magnets?


I think it's down to historical fiction/faction. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that people who've read lots of it are considered bad subjects for regression. Bloxam's (?) tapes made for interesting reading, but I can't remember if they've been "called into question" in the 20 years or so since I read them.


Because there would have to be three of them.

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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:43 pm

they were it turned out many of the characters and incidents in the lasses oirish past life came out of a child's book she read when a wean.


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Postby Theotherone » Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:47 pm

Shame, I always liked the York Jewess and the American Nun.

(Can't really remember the Irish one)


Because there would have to be three of them.

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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:09 pm

I think that i recall reading that the York jewess took refuge from the damn mob that tore her to bits in the crypt of a church that was built a hundred years after the riots.


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Postby Theotherone » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:21 pm

Fishes in the memory here, but wasn't it a crypt that was discovered underneath when work was being done on the church?

To return vaguely to subject what got me was that except for the servant to the king of France's mistress they were all fairly obscure.


Because there would have to be three of them.

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Postby Teagirl » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:36 pm

ViscontesseD'Asbeau wrote: All things being equal (fat and ginger versus page boy hair do and hunchback), why don't Henry get the stalkers?


I blame Sid James.

I also think that it's possible that Henry and his 6-pack don't get stalkers in the same quantity as Richard III because Henry's already been trademarked by every single 'ye olde renaissance faire-fayre' in the world. I think Disney should be blamed too.

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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:54 pm

Maybe Disney should do a Dick 3 *The Hunchback of Notre Middleham*...

I remember reading about the Bloxham Tapes in 'Man Myth & Magic' in the 1970s - very intriguing hokum. Think if the same subjects were regressed to the time they picked up the info, that would be instructive... Apparently, you can even scan the pages of a book quickly, not consciously read it, and then be regressed and regurgitate what you read there. So someone can claim in all honesty they never read about something, but then have knowledge of it.

Why do deluded people think they are Napoleon, though? And creepy ladies fancy bad boy Dick? (Napoleon's another examplel now I think of it, of someone who was vaguely passable in their youth then fat and bald in all the standard portraits and in the public consciousness)... And what about that lady who will of course remain nameless but seems (allegedly) to think she is Mary Queen of Scots but looks like an escapee from Renfayre/Sealed Knot battle circa 1978?

Does re-enactment attract a higher % of such people than you'd find in a random sample of the populace? That's what I'm wondering.... :D :D



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Postby Teagirl » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:42 pm

ViscontesseD'Asbeau wrote:Does re-enactment attract a higher % of such people than you'd find in a random sample of the populace? That's what I'm wondering.... :D :D


I don't think so, really. Re-enactment attracts people with an interest in history or hitting people with shiny swords or dressing funny. People who think they're the reincarnation of someone (always noble or rich or of some sort of high status, of course) aren't really interested in the whys and wherefores of history, they just like being 'someone'.

I often thought I was the reincarnation of someone, but I was wrong.

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Postby gregory23b » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:47 pm

"Does re-enactment attract a higher % of such people than you'd find in a random sample of the populace?"

Maybe there are more as a number within reenactment because there is pride in dressing up and it is after all an exercise in fantasy role playing (even without 1st p).

A bit like wargaming attracting armchair generals and soldiers.

The hobby legitimises so much odd behaviour that in all honesty belief in reincarnation is somewhat tame and quite benign.


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Postby guthrie » Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:16 pm

gregory23b wrote:The hobby legitimises so much odd behaviour that in all honesty belief in reincarnation is somewhat tame and quite benign.

And therefore be more apparent than in the normal population.



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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:13 pm

Although taken as a whole i expect more of the world populace subcribe to some form of belief in reiecarnation than those who do not.


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Postby yve » Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:30 pm

If you take a general basis of reincarnation to be lessons not learned in one life will be carried forward to the next incarnation, then it may make some kind of sense that re inactors could be attempting to bring something from a previous life into the conscious mind to deal with it - Im sure you all know people who have said they are more comfortable in medieval settings than in present day.

I have read that if a person has a particular lesson to learn, and it would help them to do so, then Akashic records can be made available for them to view - a bit like us watching a dvd - and this would be stored in their memory somewhere, the same as a previous life memory. So in theory its possible to have 20 or so Cleopatras at the same time, and they wont necessarily be faking it, but it would make a total mockery of regression! Having said that, there are people who are so unhappy with their life they do claim to be whoever just to make their life a bit exciting.

The 'nutjobs' are a different kettle of fish. You start leaving history and look at psychology. Its quite deep, and and each one will be for different reasons and will have all sorts of variations, but its basically about intergrating the light and dark side of the personality.


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Postby Phil the Grips » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:27 am

I've done regressions (as part of a hypnotherapy training) and the subject was never anyone famous or connected to anyone famous.

I remain totally open to the matter but do know it can be an effective therapeutic tool, as well as open to massive abuse by all involved.


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Postby BigM » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:18 pm

"Does re-enactment attract a higher % of such people than you'd find in a random sample of the populace?"


Yes! :twisted:

I've done regressions (as part of a hypnotherapy training) and the subject was never anyone famous or connected to anyone famous.


Could this mean that the people-who-have-regression-and-think-they- were-someone-famous thing is an urban myth? Maybe people who don't believe in regression propagated this to discredit it - it is certainly used as an argument against on telly. Then again, if two people go to the same regression person and say they were both Joseph Stalin in a previous life we can conclude that the hypnotist was crap and can't really do regression or that regression itself is bo**ocks. In the case of the former I get the feeling that believers would be likely to say 'oh yes but you need to see a realllllllll hypnotist, then you can be sure!' But can we be sure? No! We can only be as sure of regression being a former life as we can be sure of Ghosts or Gods or the tooth fairy. And anyway, we are also being asked to believe in two things: first, reincarnation and second that hypnotic regression works. Maybe it is a good therapy and maybe the person that you think you are just symbolises something in your sub-concious.

I guess it is weird thinking you were someone thought to be a nasty piece of work, unless you are completely convinced they were not. In which case your reality is quite different to that of the person you are freaking out in the beer tent. At least it would make for an interesting conversation.

Anyway, I am off to set up a Gulag.

Love Hattie



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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:30 pm

The lady I met who thought she was Dick was not regressed, just convinced from everything she'd read, she was him. :roll:



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Postby gregory23b » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:40 pm

"Anyway, I am off to set up a Gulag.

Love Hattie"


HAHAHAHAHAHA top notch.


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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:26 am

You know I sometimes get this strange feeling I was a monkey in a past life...



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Postby Kyrie Eleison » Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:47 am

Well don't worry Countess Monkey, we should work together and I fancy re-enacting 18th C towns people from Hartlepool and we need a monkey or too.

Ask Count D'Asbeau is he fancies a bit of 18thC too.....


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Postby greenland_and_game » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:37 am

And your reincarnation point boys and girls? :D :D :D :D :D



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Postby ViscontesseD'Asbeau » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:24 pm

The intriguing thing is, he was hardly a looker. And you can sort of get the whole soulmate thing if he was eye candy. The way round this is to say it's all Shakespeare's fault (ignoring the fact Shakespeare had sources) and they painted the hump in after to discredit him, etc etc. But take away the hump and the Betty Boo hair do and he's still not entirely passable.... (This is when I wish I could do clever things with images :D )

Re. regression, there's a difference between folk who think they might have been Dick because they said it under hypnosis, and folk who just start off thinking they're Dick?

I spose it's like fancying the uglier one in a boy band when you're a teenager - subconsciously, the unattractive one is more attainable? That said, I always preferred King John to Richard I (but not to the point I think I am him, I hasten to add!)

Maybe it's all Laurence Olivier's fault....



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Postby stephen wootten » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:28 pm

just got back from holiday in scotland, stopped on way back on hadrians wall and thought long... then stopped in york for 2 days and thought wet but a decient amount of things to do while its so wet, appart from getting wetter.
found dickie 3 museum in the monk gate house interesting collection of circumstantial gossip by the prosceution and deffence in my oppion, and so much bad press by the victor as always. worth looking at if only for the chance to see some other gossip from the other side for once.

had no hunchback for certain. probably was a git tho, but good on tax reforms.

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Postby gregory23b » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:30 am

now I know from where my Hattie Jacques fixation has sprung.

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:D :D :D

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Postby Vez » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:40 am

I once paid £120 to be regressed, having in interest in such things. Couldnt be hypnotised! Still took the money off me tho.

I must have seen three different women who all claimed to be Ann Boleyn on TV programmes but even from my meagre knowledge I could punch holes in their theories.


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