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The Devereux retinue.

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:44 pm
by Zachos
The Devereux Retinue finally finds itself dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century with some internet type photo's. We still like living way back when though.

Myself and Martin in our Templar gear:

Image

Moving forward 200 or so years Martin and myself engage in single combat:

Image

After a bout of grappling leaving myself unarmed and Martin with two swords I decide playing dead is the best option:

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After a healthy decapitation I retire to the cook tent with lydia to watch the rest of the retinue at archery practice.

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The three knights of the retinue engage in some scare tactics. The name uttered with dread by all our enemies; The CANCAN!!!

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Hopefully there will be some more photo's and maybe even our own site soon!

Zac

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:10 pm
by lidimy
I retire to the cook tent with lydia
Why did no one tell me I was there?!

Cute pictures, like them a lot :D

Lidi :D

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:52 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
I like the warhammer, where did you pick it up (no pun intended in that)>

Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:16 pm
by Zachos
This one:

Image

Came from Lez of Vectis arms, on the isle of wight. Great guy, and nice pole weapons, although the shafts aren't as good as they could be and deadlines aren't always kept.

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:10 pm
by Marcus Woodhouse
Tis a preety piece of flesh, but do you ever get to play with it or is it just for show? (Some show though-were I wearing a hat I'd be taking it off to you.)

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:22 pm
by Zachos
We use it when in full plate, and I believe we may grind a bit of it off to meet mss requlations. Seems a bit of a shame though, I like it as it is.

It belongs to our group leader, so I'm usually on the receiving end rather than the delivery end, but its a nice officers weapon to differentiate from the other pole arms we use.

Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:47 am
by Simon_Diment
Nice piccies Zachos, that's a lot of kit to maintain with more than one period. being a geek of course I can see very few bits that need any change at all.

You at Lanark this year?

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:32 pm
by Chris, yclept John Barber
Simon_Diment wrote:I can see very few bits that need any change at all.
That mail looks galvanised to me!!! It could just be an artifact of the photo, of course, in which case disregard the rest of this posting. But be warned: galvanised mail NEVER looks authentic, and very few grades of stainless do.

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:55 pm
by Simon_Diment
Chris, yclept John Barber Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:32 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simon_Diment wrote:
I can see very few bits that need any change at all.



That mail looks galvanised to me!!! It could just be an artifact of the photo, of course, in which case disregard the rest of this posting. But be warned: galvanised mail NEVER looks authentic, and very few grades of stainless do.
True, but there is more than enough galvanised out there that we can't change it overnight unfortunately, even I haven't replaced all mine yet :oops:

It was other bits I was looking at, for example the lack of sleeves on the hauberk while wearing chausses plus the shield should be a flat top kite rather than a tear-drop considering the helmet is full-faced with an additional back plate to protect the neck and lower part of the skull.

Overall I think they look great and it's only my inner geek that would change odd bits to be it just so. :roll:

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:41 pm
by Chris, yclept John Barber
Simon_Diment wrote: True, but there is more than enough galvanised out there that we can't change it overnight unfortunately, even I haven't replaced all mine yet :oops:

It was other bits I was looking at, for example the lack of sleeves on the hauberk while wearing chausses plus the shield should be a flat top kite rather than a tear-drop considering the helmet is full-faced with an additional back plate to protect the neck and lower part of the skull.

Overall I think they look great and it's only my inner geek that would change odd bits to be it just so. :roll:
Trouble is, it takes a real (and specialised!) geek to know when flat-topped and kite-shaped shields are appropriate. (I don't, for a start!) But there are thousands of MOPs out there who will take great pleasure in spotting galvanised steel and pointing out "They didn't have that then!"

It's one of the things that really stands out, and detracts from a group's performance. Once one smart-alec points that out, the group's credibility is damaged in the eyes of anyone who heard it - and in arena-type shows, that could be half the audience.

Although you're right, it will take a long time to get rid of it all (for a start, we can't wait for it to rust away!), I think it needs to be challenged to encourage re-enactors to strive for better standards.

I agree with you about the rest of their kit, though. All looks good. Although if I let my inner geek loose, I'll point out that the slot-together chairs were invented by a Scoutmaster in the early 20th century, and are completely unknown in medieval illustrations. But that's the kind of anachronism which doesn't bother me too much: it's something well within the abilities of medieval folk, and it takes specialist knowledge (usually confined to other re-enactors, who are quite forgiving about small details like that) to spot it as wrong.

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:27 pm
by mac (crucesignati)
Simon_Diment wrote:
Chris, yclept John Barber Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:32 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

True, but there is more than enough galvanised out there that we can't change it overnight unfortunately, even I haven't replaced all mine yet :oops:

It was other bits I was looking at, for example the lack of sleeves on the hauberk while wearing chausses plus the shield should be a flat top kite rather than a tear-drop considering the helmet is full-faced with an additional back plate to protect the neck and lower part of the skull.

Overall I think they look great and it's only my inner geek that would change odd bits to be it just so. :roll:
Are you pointing out that short-sleeves are okay or a point for change?

Within the Order of the Temple short-sleeved or sleeveless mail haubergeon were worn by Sergeants (possibly by Turcopoles depending upon wealth), the Knights mail was long-sleeved with mitts. Chausses for Sergeants were without feet whereas the Knights were footed (footed? that's bad england isn't it!)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:57 pm
by Biro
mac (crucesignati) wrote:
Are you pointing out that short-sleeves are okay or a point for change?

Within the Order of the Temple short-sleeved or sleeveless mail haubergeon were worn by Sergeants (possibly by Turcopoles depending upon wealth), the Knights mail was long-sleeved with mitts. Chausses for Sergeants were without feet whereas the Knights were footed (footed? that's bad england isn't it!)
That's interesting.. Most of what I have seen so far shows long-sleeves and mitts developing and becoming common before mail chausses - and most pictorial stuff seems to show a lack of mail chausses on anyone with short sleeved hauberks, yet long-sleeved hauberks often are often shown on ppl with no mail chausses..

It's good to know that the order specifically goes for something different there... Makes me rememeber that what I sometimes take for the 'the way it was' isn't always the case.

Thanks for that Mac :)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:42 pm
by lidimy
How can you tell if mail is galvanised or not? :shock: I've only just got the hang of butted and rivetted (says me) though I couldn't tell them apart!

Lidi...

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:51 pm
by m300572
Close up you could tell rivetted and butted apart Lidi.

Galvanised mail tends to look very bright and shiny (or bright and grey coloured) and doesn't get rust spots, whereas the 'real stuff' would have been darker and not too shiny unless some poor b**ger had been up all night polishing it (although putting it in a barrel partly filled with sand and rolling it around for a while would polish it up - the modern equivalent is a cement mixerr with a few shovels of dry sand but you end up with toxic waste to dispose of (sand heavily contaminated with zinc from the galvanise)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:55 pm
by lidimy
I see - is the metal treated in some way? And does galvanised refer to the structure of the mail, or just the metal used/aesthetics?

Lidi :)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:01 pm
by Biro
lidimy wrote:I see - is the metal treated in some way? And does galvanised refer to the structure of the mail, or just the metal used/aesthetics?

Lidi :)
Galvanised is a zinc coating on top of the steel, mainly to stop it rusting. Purely a modern thing - galvanised wire is easy and cheap to get hold of for making mail.

Galv mail looks a dull and uniform grey, where plain steel tends to have shiny bits and rusty bits :)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:07 pm
by lidimy
Ooooh now I seeeeeeee

Now I can join the annoying MoP crowd *rubs halo*

Thanks

Lidi xD

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:07 pm
by PaulMurphy
lidimy wrote:How can you tell if mail is galvanised or not? :shock: I've only just got the hang of butted and rivetted (says me) though I couldn't tell them apart!

Lidi...
Mail varies greatly in colour depending on how it has been made and treated, so with plain low-grade steel it can be anything from rusty red to an oiled black. What it won't normally be is a light grey or silver colour, so these are generally a very good indication of stainless steel, or galvanising.

As an example, my later-period mail is flat wedge rivetted, and has been oil coated. See http://www.lanarkmedievalfestival.co.uk ... rious.html - I'm on the right. John from Medieval Realm ( http://www.medieval-realm.co.uk/andreas.html) is on the left, wearing mail which I believe is galvanised, although it could be steel which is well worn and therefore polished.

My earlier shirt is plain steel butted - see http://www.ousekjarr.org/images/combat1.jpg for an example. Without being oiled, this is naturally dark, with a sheen from regular wear.

For a bad example of galvanising, see http://www.medieval-arms.co.uk/ma/actio ... e%20M.html - the shirt is bad enough, but the coif looks like it was sprayed with silver paint.

Beware though that photography, and flash photography in particular, can make anything metal look completely different from its normal appearance, as the focus, aperture and speed settings can change just about every element of the photo, and modern digital cameras which try to do automatic white balancing and automatic exposure can get it badly wrong in some cases.

Paul.

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:11 pm
by lidimy
Thank you for the pictures :D I assume that what we would deem low grade steel is what they would have worked with?

Isn't rivetted the more authentic variety?

Lidi :D

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:12 pm
by PaulMurphy
As a constructive comment on the original photos, one thing which has always puzzled me is the very common approach of many societies of combining C15th plate armour with a C13th or early C14th great helm. It is usually explained as a safety issue, but of course there are many styles of helm from the correct period which have visors and which offer better protection, so I'm no wiser on why this happens so much.

Is it because great helms (sugarloaf style or not) are cheaper or something?

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:13 pm
by lidimy
What's a great helm...? (sorry for being dense!)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:16 pm
by PaulMurphy
lidimy wrote:Thank you for the pictures :D I assume that what we would deem low grade steel is what they would have worked with?

Isn't rivetted the more authentic variety?

Lidi :D
Steel grades - very much so. While there has been little research done on the composition of the rings, the likelihood is that they have a very low carbon content, as the drawing process to make the wire (or the cutting process to stamp them out of plates) requires the metal to be relatively soft. Medieval metallurgy was advanced in some ways, and could achieve better steel qualities, but not in great quantities, and in any case it would be the wrong material for the job.

On the authenticity front, rivetted mail is definitely more authentic - there have been some (unverified) claims that butted mail is found in the surviving fragments, but the majority of published finds are of rivetted mail or rivetted and solid rings alternating. The very small remainder have each ring welded shut...

Paul.

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:18 pm
by lidimy
Thank you :D

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:19 pm
by PaulMurphy
lidimy wrote:What's a great helm...? (sorry for being dense!)
Photos 2 and 3 at the top of the page - the left/victor is wearing a sugarloaf great helm, in which the vertical sides are topped with a conical dome. The classical great helm has a flat top and gently sloping sides - see

http://www.gdfb.co.uk/acatalog/h_greathelm_nw.jpg

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:05 pm
by guthrie
We have to get LIdimiy to an event, and get everyone to bring Osprey books and other sources of information.

Then we can watch her explode as she tries to assimilate it all.


(For galvanisation, think those tubular steel 5 bar farm gates- those have been galvanised)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:08 pm
by lidimy
e have to get LIdimiy to an event
That is my main aim at the minute, lol!

Surely there has to be a GCSE one can do in Medieval metallurgy.

You've all been a tremendous lot of help, lots of thanks!

Lidi :D

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:10 pm
by guthrie
No, too specialised for GCSE. However, some uni' do archeometallurgy research and it could be possible to specialise. Unfortunately they all seem to be uni's down in englandshire, hence not a lot of use to me here in Scotland.

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:43 pm
by Simon_Diment
PaulMurphy
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject:
lidimy wrote:
What's a great helm...? (sorry for being dense!)


Photos 2 and 3 at the top of the page - the left/victor is wearing a sugarloaf great helm, in which the vertical sides are topped with a conical dome. The classical great helm has a flat top and gently sloping sides - see
If I remember the sugar loaf had a very short lived appearance c30 years and that was round about the end of the C13th so it's fine for Bannockburn but precludes it's usage with full plate that wasn't developed until later in the C14th.


mac (crucesignati)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject:
Are you pointing out that short-sleeves are okay or a point for change?

Within the Order of the Temple short-sleeved or sleeveless mail haubergeon were worn by Sergeants (possibly by Turcopoles depending upon wealth), the Knights mail was long-sleeved with mitts. Chausses for Sergeants were without feet whereas the Knights were footed (footed? that's bad england isn't it!)
Zachos should be wearing full sleeves considering the rest of his kit is of knightly standards. The belt should still be tied too not buckled, as illustrated in contemporary manuscripts from the period, in in fact stays in vogue as a feature of much later funeral effigies. See geek head on again. :oops:

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:57 pm
by Zachos
Woo, leave for a while and there's a lot of comments.

The mail is galvanised, and I have been told how to get it ungalvanised, I'm just not sure I want to involve myself with those many chemicals at the moment, but I do try and get everything as period as possible, so it will happen in the future. Martin is making his hauberk himself and so it will be full sleeved in the end, with attached mittens.

Helmets are a matter of contention for me. Being the youngster and the newbie I find it quite hard to criticise others kit, and try to put it as nicely as possible when I do. As you can see though, we all own 15th C helmets (picture 5), and it is Martins choice to wear his sugar loaf for tournament as he feels safer in it. I should probably have insisted on a later period helm for the photo's as we hope to use them for publicity shots, but I wasn't really paying enough attention.

I probably won't be at lanark by the way. I really do later period, and just dress up in earlier when really needed. I don't even have an early style helmet :(

the harness I'm hoping to get in the end is going to be a late 14th early 15th century one, very much like this one:

link

although mine will be plainer and more battered as I have a slight feeling that wearing that onto the battlefield would be like walking on with a big target painted across my front. I also intend to get a great helm for 14th C jousting.

In the far future I'm hoping to get a WotR period harness, with interchangeable barbute or sallet depending on what I'm doing in it (barbute for battlefield, sallet for jousting.)

Incidently I'm also going to get the correct period swords for my various harnesses. :D

Cheers for the interest.

Zac

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:45 pm
by PaulMurphy
Zac,

Good luck with the plans for the future - the early C15th kit is gorgeous if done well.

I think the key to the whole thing is to remain consistent wherever possible, so while no-one expects you to appear from nowhere in perfect kit, they would like to see your expenditure spread across all of your kit in proportion, rather than blowing all of it on one item and skimping on the rest. So far, its looking good, with only a few areas where we have offered suggestions - by comparison with some of the discussions on these forums over kit, you've scored pretty well.

Now what you need is to maintain the momentum, and keep the same high targets. Hopefully we'll see you at Lanark next year in your earlier kit!

Paul.