FOUND IT - picture of "two ladies jousting"

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WhiteGriffin
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FOUND IT - picture of "two ladies jousting"

Postby WhiteGriffin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:05 pm

Hello all!
A while ago i found an image on http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/
of two ladies jousting, without armour.
The image is not available anymore on the website and i can't seem to find it anywhere else.
Can someone help me track it down? :)
Thanks in advance!
Cheers!


For the one who where curious about it, here it is:

[/img]
Attachments
024418_T.JPG
Last edited by WhiteGriffin on Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.



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Fox
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Postby Fox » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:07 pm

Have you tried e-mailing them?



WhiteGriffin
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Postby WhiteGriffin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:34 pm

Hi!
Yes i did, but got no response.



Theotherone
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Postby Theotherone » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:50 pm

I know the one you mean (I can't find it again either). Did you need it for a particular reason?


Because there would have to be three of them.

WhiteGriffin
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Postby WhiteGriffin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:01 pm

Hi Theotherone!
No particular reason, it is just an image that i'm really fond of since i'm a woman who fights and joust. :)



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Postby Theotherone » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:15 pm

I can point you towards some other pics of women fighting, if you like. This was the only one I recall finding of them jousting tho. It's really bugging me that I can't remember the MS it's from. Something keeps suggesting it's 12th C but I'd been looking at lots of images the night I found that one.


Because there would have to be three of them.

WhiteGriffin
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Postby WhiteGriffin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:44 pm

Thanks Theotherone, but i guess there's no need. :)
I have several pictures of women fighting aswell, but that one was special because, as you mentioned, it's the only one i have ever seen with women jousting.



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Postby Theotherone » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:53 pm

BTW, should you happen to come across a jousting rabbit riding a snail I've a friend who's trying to track that one down...


Because there would have to be three of them.


WhiteGriffin
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Postby WhiteGriffin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:47 pm

Theotherone wrote:BTW, should you happen to come across a jousting rabbit riding a snail I've a friend who's trying to track that one down...


Here it is: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/286 ... dcf30d.jpg

It's from Kurtzweil by Jörg Wickram



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Postby WhiteGriffin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:48 pm

hamster wrote:http://perlinelatisserande.over-blog.com/article-6347399.html
any of these any help


Thank you! Some of them i have never seen before. :D



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Postby Theotherone » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:18 pm

hamster wrote:http://perlinelatisserande.over-blog.com/article-6347399.html
any of these any help


These were some of the ones I had in mind - Hamster and I are in the same group and we had a night of "femme fatale" finding on our forum a while ago, we turned up quite a few :twisted:

BTW here is the full version of the ladies defending the castle http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.a ... earchnum=3

Thanks very much for the Rabbit/snail - I'll pass it on and see if it's the right one.


Because there would have to be three of them.

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Postby Bogwoppit » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:53 pm

WhiteGriffin wrote:
Theotherone wrote:BTW, should you happen to come across a jousting rabbit riding a snail I've a friend who's trying to track that one down...


Here it is: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/286 ... dcf30d.jpg

It's from Kurtzweil by Jörg Wickram



:shock: I don't believe that actually exists!! I thought Theotherone was taking the P!!! :lol:



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Postby Theotherone » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:02 pm

Bogwoppit wrote:
WhiteGriffin wrote:
Theotherone wrote:BTW, should you happen to come across a jousting rabbit riding a snail I've a friend who's trying to track that one down...


Here it is: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/286 ... dcf30d.jpg

It's from Kurtzweil by Jörg Wickram



:shock: I don't believe that actually exists!! I thought Theotherone was taking the P!!! :lol:


Not only does it exist it's available as a counted cross stitch pattern :D Unfortunately they only give the chart (apparently) not a picture of what the finished arcticle should look like or the original illustration.

(It's partner is a jousting dog on a rabbit, the angle of the rabbit's head gives the unfortunate impression that there is a sex act involved :shock: )

but that just might be my mind at work :oops:


Because there would have to be three of them.

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Postby Bogwoppit » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:59 pm

Theotherone wrote:but that just might be my mind at work :oops:


You should be in the Singles Banter thread... you'd fit right in!! :twisted: :lol:



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Postby WhiteGriffin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:43 pm

Bogwoppit wrote:
WhiteGriffin wrote:
Theotherone wrote:BTW, should you happen to come across a jousting rabbit riding a snail I've a friend who's trying to track that one down...


Here it is: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/286 ... dcf30d.jpg

It's from Kurtzweil by Jörg Wickram



:shock: I don't believe that actually exists!! I thought Theotherone was taking the P!!! :lol:


:lol: As strange as it may sound, it does exist. And the other pictures are weird aswell!



WhiteGriffin
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Postby WhiteGriffin » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:50 pm

Theotherone wrote:
Bogwoppit wrote:
WhiteGriffin wrote:
Theotherone wrote:BTW, should you happen to come across a jousting rabbit riding a snail I've a friend who's trying to track that one down...


Here it is: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/286 ... dcf30d.jpg

It's from Kurtzweil by Jörg Wickram



:shock: I don't believe that actually exists!! I thought Theotherone was taking the P!!! :lol:


Not only does it exist it's available as a counted cross stitch pattern :D Unfortunately they only give the chart (apparently) not a picture of what the finished arcticle should look like or the original illustration.

(It's partner is a jousting dog on a rabbit, the angle of the rabbit's head gives the unfortunate impression that there is a sex act involved :shock: )

but that just might be my mind at work :oops:


Maybe it's not "just" you're mind at work, not when you look at things like this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3295/286 ... fcfcb7.jpg
:P



Theotherone
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Postby Theotherone » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:00 pm

Yep - It's surprising what you can find in marginals too isn't it?

BTW isn't there a carving in a church some where with a surprised monk's face on one side of a wall and his bottom on the other?


Because there would have to be three of them.

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Postby Joolz » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:45 pm

Mediaeval scatology - don't you just love it....
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Bellows.jpg
Sausage.jpg
Priests.jpg


Mickey Mouse is dead!

l'Enfer, c'est les autres...

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Postby Bogwoppit » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:29 pm

:shock:



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Postby WhiteGriffin » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:24 pm

Joolz wrote:Mediaeval scatology - don't you just love it....


:lol: Apparently Medieval people were very outspoken about their fetishes!

This one can be found outside of a church in Guimarães - Portugal:

[/url]
Attachments
detalhes05zi7.jpg



WhiteGriffin
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Postby WhiteGriffin » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:25 pm

Theotherone wrote:Yep - It's surprising what you can find in marginals too isn't it?

BTW isn't there a carving in a church some where with a surprised monk's face on one side of a wall and his bottom on the other?


I've never heard about that one, but i'm sure to investigate! ;)



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Postby Theotherone » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:17 pm

There is a rather large collection of sins of the flesh images on "Satan in the Groin" - I won't post the link in case anyone accidentally opens it in work.

BTW where did the jousting ladies come from in the end?


Because there would have to be three of them.

WhiteGriffin
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Postby WhiteGriffin » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:52 pm

Theotherone wrote:There is a rather large collection of sins of the flesh images on "Satan in the Groin" - I won't post the link in case anyone accidentally opens it in work.

BTW where did the jousting ladies come from in the end?


I believe the image is from "The Queen Mary Psalter", but i have no idea under what subject.



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Postby gregory23b » Mon May 04, 2009 3:19 pm

What is the context of the joust? ie the actual manuscript text?

And those Portuguese are crazy!


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Postby Brother Ranulf » Mon May 04, 2009 5:25 pm

I can't speak for the Queen Mary Psalter as it's outside my period, but the images of "unarmoured women fighting" in 12th century contexts are always allegorical - representing a Virtue combating a Vice (guess who wins . . .).

Such figures appear frequently in church wall-paintings as well as religious manuscripts from the time and they are female because they represent "feminine" aspects of human character - Harmonia versus Discordia, Prudentia versus Psychomachia or Fides versus Idolatria for example.

IMHO spear- and sword-armed women are more likely to be allegorical than real from the early 12th century onwards, particularly in a religious context and they don't provide evidence for hordes of Joan-of-Arc characters (yes I know about the infrequent instances of women taking temporary charge during sieges).


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Postby gregory23b » Mon May 04, 2009 7:22 pm

Thanks BR.

I am always dubious of images being posted without any sort of context or explanation of the text they belong to.

There are other later allegories such as the woman wearing the hose, this comes up a lot where a woman is fighting a man to wear his hose, ie be boss, I can think of misericords and woodblocks. Taken at face value it could be seen as a bit of x dressing ;-)


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Postby Theotherone » Mon May 04, 2009 11:33 pm

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't take the jousting ladies as proof that they actually did such things, any more than I'd take the image of a centaur doing the same as proof that the either existed or habitually took part in such activities, but it was unusual enough for it to stick in my mind :D


Because there would have to be three of them.

WhiteGriffin
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Postby WhiteGriffin » Tue May 05, 2009 1:36 pm

Theotherone wrote:Speaking for myself, I wouldn't take the jousting ladies as proof that they actually did such things, any more than I'd take the image of a centaur doing the same as proof that the either existed or habitually took part in such activities, but it was unusual enough for it to stick in my mind :D


Indeed. Not only for the fact that they're women, but also because they have no body protection, so it's for sure an allegory as Brother Ranulf says above. I would love to know the story behind it.
As i've never seen women portrayed jousting before, is a very inspiring image for me. :)



WhiteGriffin
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Postby WhiteGriffin » Tue May 05, 2009 1:45 pm

Brother Ranulf wrote:I can't speak for the Queen Mary Psalter as it's outside my period, but the images of "unarmoured women fighting" in 12th century contexts are always allegorical - representing a Virtue combating a Vice (guess who wins . . .).

Such figures appear frequently in church wall-paintings as well as religious manuscripts from the time and they are female because they represent "feminine" aspects of human character - Harmonia versus Discordia, Prudentia versus Psychomachia or Fides versus Idolatria for example.

IMHO spear- and sword-armed women are more likely to be allegorical than real from the early 12th century onwards, particularly in a religious context and they don't provide evidence for hordes of Joan-of-Arc characters (yes I know about the infrequent instances of women taking temporary charge during sieges).


Thank you for this information Brother Ranulf. :)
Actually what you say makes this image even more intriguing for me, cause it's not a woman fighting a creature or man, it's a woman vs another.
It's allegorical for sure, but in what context?
They are holding shields with some heraldic symbol, maybe a story about two wives..
As i said, if i ever find out, i'll be sure to post it here. :)




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