Clithero 2008

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Ariarnia
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Clithero 2008

Post by Ariarnia »

The show went well.

About 400 watched the battle, with about 1000 people about for the day.

All seemed to have a good time, and it was the first show for one of our new groups, so fledgeling re-enactors made.

There is a limited range of photos atm, as they are still being printed and sorted.

If anyone's interested I'll post more as they become available, especially of the LH. (thank you to Mike Newton (sp?)(regia) who was at the show and has provided us with some photos)

Image
Most of our group shot.

Image
Basket weaver

Image
Tent Guard

Image
Earls company

Image
Forming up the lines and assessing the enemy

Image
The push

Image
Finishing them. (The spearman in the green was reprimanded for having her spear at face height, before anyone comments)

Image
Sparing.

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latheaxe
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Re: Clithero 2008

Post by latheaxe »

(The spearman in the green was reprimanded for having her spear at face height, before anyone comments)


HAHA..You have learnt' about this forum quick! :lol:

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Malvoisin
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Re: Clithero 2008

Post by Malvoisin »

Ariarnia wrote: Image
The push
What are they doing to that car!?? :shock:





(and I see 2 of the earls company have just done a spot of welding and forgot to remove their gauntlets. :wink: Ooooo aren't I cruel! :twisted: )

But yeah looked like a good turn out.
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Post by Alan_F »

Are you allowing people to fight without helmets on?
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Cat
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Post by Cat »

Great photos, and good to see so many new re-enactors.
Just one comment (you knew there was going to be one, didn't you!).

I've been a spearman for a lot of years (just to establish my credentials), and one thing about the photo containing the lass in green bothers me a little.
It may just be the definition on the photo, but both she and a girl behind her appear to be cupping the end of their spear in their back hand. This is a dangerous grip to fight with (many societies advocate either both hands over the shaft, or back hand over, front hand under). The idea is, if they hit somebody with reasonable force/get pushed/slip, them the shaft can slide through their grip and no harm is done. If you cup the end of the spear and slip (etc), you can cause serious blunt trauma to the recipient. Broken ribs aren't much fun!

Please take this in the spirit of advice from an aging billperson. All the best.
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Post by Aelfric »

Alan_F wrote:Are you allowing people to fight without helmets on?
Not uncomon in Early Medieval groups.

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Post by Alan_F »

Cat's right - you can't have a hand over the end, it means anyone being pushed onto the spear (which ideally wouldn't happen, but when someone at the back is pushing to get to the fighting it can and will happen) is going to get injured.

Also (I'm not being picky or anything, spears are the weapon I'm best with that's all) there is someone using the spear at about face height - can I suggest that you use the stomach as the sole target area for spear? In the case of most male re-enactors, this presents a nice big target :wink: and it is a lot more safer.

If you want to discuss spears more, PM me. 8)
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Ariarnia
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Post by Ariarnia »

I shall try not to miss anything, but if I ignore you then shout.

We have helmets as the first armour on the field. No one should be wearing any form of armour that isn’t wearing a helmet (as can be seen by the yellow tunic and green edging with nothing but a helmet)

Green spearman was reprimanded for spear at face height and for hand on butt. We allow hand on butt for walking and moving as it allows spearmen to know where the back of the spear is and to not reverse into people.

We allow spear pointed upwards for the pushing phase, when there is not to be any actual fighting. She should not have been doing so at this point. For combat yellow and red tunic in ‘the push’ is a perfect society example. Underhand and secondary weapon securely griped pointing down and into his body.

Members should be wearing gloves to protect their hands for safety reasons, and we are having trouble sourcing authentic gauntlets. We also currently use welding gauntlets for our pewter smelter and for some parts of cooking – we know they aren’t perfect, we’re working on it.

Car in the background is behind the ropes by quite a way. It’s a funny angle to the back of the arena.

Our kill zone is bellow the collar bone and above the belt (hips) aiming should be for a full hand span below the zone to allow sliding up, and all blows should be at a downwards angle and with the flat. We have been fighting for about 5 years now, and have yet to have a serious accident (many scraped fingers/shins, and one split lip and one girl who fell over her own feet and was a bit dizzy as she hit her head).

We avoid strikes to the centre of the body (stomach) as the complications that this might lead to. We aim for the sides of the body – they are more likely to be exposed and safer to strike at.

To avoid flames - I am stating group policy.

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Post by Alan_F »

The problem I have with underhand is that if the weapon is struck it can rise up too easily, I prefer both hands over the spear. The problem with handgrips on a spear is that what can work perfectly with one person may not always work perfectly with another. :?

Members should be wearing gloves to protect their hands for safety reasons, and we are having trouble sourcing authentic gauntlets. We also currently use welding gauntlets for our pewter smelter and for some parts of cooking – we know they aren’t perfect, we’re working on it.
We've found that welder's gloves from B&Q work well and look the part. 8)
Our kill zone is bellow the collar bone and above the belt (hips) aiming should be for a full hand span below the zone to allow sliding up, and all blows should be at a downwards angle and with the flat. We have been fighting for about 5 years now, and have yet to have a serious accident
My problem with using the ribs as a target is that, even with the best will in the world, sooner or later someone will use the spear with the head flat on to the enemy (we keep the spear heads vertical) and that can cause a nasty injury.
(many scraped fingers/shins, and one split lip and one girl who fell over her own feet and was a bit dizzy as she hit her head).
We had a bloke who good survive any fight and then go and trip over a blade of grass, we still wonder about him..... :wink:
We avoid strikes to the centre of the body (stomach) as the complications that this might lead to. We aim for the sides of the body – they are more likely to be exposed and safer to strike at.
It shouldn't be a problem aiming for the stomach - the blow should be pulled and I usually just do the strike as a quick jab in and out.
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Post by Nigel »

lookinga alot and I mean a lot better than the last lot

niggles people in surcoats without armour armoured men without helmets

getting there well done
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Aelfric »

No offence intended (pictures are indeed a great improvment) but you don't take arm shots, you don't take leg shots or shoulder shots and the stomach should be avoided that doesn't leave an great deal left to hit.

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Post by Adam the flatulent »

I saw this gig on sunday. Are you a local group? who are you and do you have a website??

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Post by Ariarnia »

Aelfric wrote:No offence intended (pictures are indeed a great improvement) but you don't take arm shots, you don't take leg shots or shoulder shots and the stomach should be avoided that doesn't leave an great deal left to hit.
It's based on consultation with ER workers based on actual damage inflicted by wounds.

We have the children of two practice nurses who have both worked ER and an ex-records worker as members – they have dug for info. To the point at which we had a consult from the surgeon general of Lancashire as to the possible damage of one particular injury that was debated.

An example would be a report of a woman working in a primary school that was attacked by a man with a 2ft machete, She defended the children and took a total of 33 strikes (I think 17 to one arm and 16 to the other) to her fore arms, warding him off until help arrived. She suffered no permanent damage to the bone of her arm (some chips) and still had mobility and use of her arms in the ER when they were tending to them.

We had (summaries obviously) of several such reported knife attacks, machete attacks, blunt instrument and so on, and the limbs don't actually seem to limit combat ability on the whole. We can’t really allow head shots (given lack of helmets on some), then when you factor in that limbs tend to be behind shields; the torso seems the best and safest place to aim for. I am not saying that the stomach is not allowed – it’s in the target area, but stabs to the stomach are to be avoided, strikes are fine.

Nigel - No armoured man should be without a helmet in the combat. One persons strap broke, but that should be the only one (all in black and black maille). We allow people to remove helmets in the sparing so they can see as it is casual fun. We also allow people to vary the kill zone for the sparing, if it is pre-agreed, but no head shots. The only person I know of that was wearing a surcotte but no armour is the crossbowman attached to the Earl’s Company and is wearing his colours (black and yellow) with a dagger out for the image.

Adam the flatulent - No, we don’t really have a website; our techie disappeared on us a while back. You should have come up and chatted. What did you think of the display? I put that LH together in about a month, but I think we pulled it off ok.

We are local to Wales (Conwy, Cardiff, Aberystwyth and Lampeter) atm. With a new group in Manchester and a group I think we're ditching in Liverpool - they didn't bother to sort any kit, then decided not to turn up. They are the groups in the other pictures in the white PJ's and no shoes as they couldn't be bothered to sort that either.

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Post by GuyofBurgundy »

The killzone is restrictive for a few reasons; one of them is safety and part of it is display- once combat rises above a certain speed the audience can't tell a whole hell of a lot anyway, and the torso makes any hit shots very obvious. We do attack at the stomach; and I know I've never avoided it... I don't hit too hard there, but I definately hit there as a primary target.
And why oh why do photos of combat always make me look like I'm just poking at people? The shot between myself (all in black) and Doyle look so monty-python it hurts.

And the group do 'act up' limbs as wounds; just not as 'kills'- so someone struck on the arm will grip it and pull back before reentering the fray. Not aiming for the shoulder is simply a safety thing; too many blades coming down otherwise.

The groups that have (predominantly) the kit to the new standards are those all in black (my guard), those in red and black and white (near side shots).
The degree to which the other groups worked on their kit varies; this new stuff was put together in two months, so there's still a lot of tweaking to be done, mainly things like scabbards and sword belts, colours (some of the new tunics either re-dyed or faded out somehow...) and sorting out helmets for more people... but apart from that the main thrust is done.
Oh, and by the way; never attempt 50 shields in 2 months. ;)

Oh and P.S; I know the hit-zone system isn't perfect, but none that I've encountered are... we worked with the old Regia armoured kill-zone and went with a mix of realism, display and practicality for making the battles about the right length. Ideally unarmoured fighters would have a wider kill zone than those in hauberks and chausses; but I've always felt it discourages too many newbies (when showing them armoured men; "they have more hits, and you can't hit them here or here...") and turns lighter infantry into cannon fodder. I also always want to keep a distinct non-armoured section, and our system has meant we have never had a serious injury from hand weapons.

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Post by Alan_F »

Ariarnia, our experience of this is based upon what our safety officer and I know to work: If you fancy trying it out come and see us sometime. 8)
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Post by Aelfric »

Thing is though very few medieval skeletons that exhibit weapon wounds have any to the torso (indeed if I remember correctly not a single one of the skeletons recovered from the Wisby mass grave had any wounds to the torso. Much more common are attacks to the head (obviously out for safety reasons), shoulders and limbs. I really can’t understand any safety concerns about attacking the shoulders, upper arms or thighs it’s pretty much standard everywhere else. Good luck all the same and if any of your lads in Manchester fancy coming to one of our practices they’re very welcome

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Post by GuyofBurgundy »

Thanks Aelfric; one of our groups is based primarily in Manchester.
Whereas the actual grave-evidence doesn't tend to show trauma to the skeleton, one of the things to note is that the stomach doesn't feature any major bones, so wouldn't if it is a 'gutting' blow, and that nearly all of Mi.33 suggests thrusts to the upper chest/face. The stomach-wound is also favoured in most imagery, the Maciejowski illustrators obviously loving the chance to show the squirting mess of intestines.

Aiming for the limbs being avoided is mainly due to a handful of weapons; the mace, the dane axe (or bill in later shows) and the hand-axe can tend to traumatise a bit! And the shoulder is mainly as I've said to avoid people coming down alongside the head. It seems odd to discuss the combat system, because written down I know how it sounds; but I've fought with it for a good long while now and it really does work... you'll just have to believe me! As I've said, combatants act up wounds to the extremities (even being honour-bound to limp etc.) which does add to the display. That said, when I fought with Regia the system also worked, but earlier on it was still with the armoured men having pretty much our kill-zone plus the upper shoulder and the unarmoureds having the full monty. I fully agreed with that, but also saw the effect it had on the morale of newby squishies... It's something I may address later on in the society; unfortunately all killzones aren't ideal because primarily texts and grave-finds agree; go for the face!

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Post by Alan_F »

Aelfric wrote: I really can’t understand any safety concerns about attacking the shoulders, upper arms or thighs it’s pretty much standard everywhere else.
There's a danger of weapons aimed for the shoulders missing and connecting with the head.
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Post by GuyofBurgundy »

Spot on Alan.
We used to include the shoulder, but it got dropped after the minor injuries all seemed to result from it. We go OVER the shoulder, which if you're safe is practically the same thing, but it means it is approached from either high left or high right and therefore well outside the 'head' zone. Basically it's only the top 'flat' of the shoulder- and it's to discourage direct downward blows.

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Post by Fox »

Alan_F wrote:
Aelfric wrote: I really can’t understand any safety concerns about attacking the shoulders, upper arms or thighs it’s pretty much standard everywhere else.
There's a danger of weapons aimed for the shoulders missing and connecting with the head.
Depends on the stance of the attacker, but for someone with a pole arm the depth difference between the upper arm and the face is over a foot.

It's safe enough under the right circumstances.

And I think this is a question of cirmcumstances.

In 14th/15thC re-enactment you'd never be allowed on the field without a helmet. That's whats appropriate for the equipment and conventions of those re-enactors.

Obviously, it's different for these earlier re-enactors.

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Post by Alan_F »

Fox wrote:
Alan_F wrote:
Aelfric wrote: I really can’t understand any safety concerns about attacking the shoulders, upper arms or thighs it’s pretty much standard everywhere else.
There's a danger of weapons aimed for the shoulders missing and connecting with the head.
Depends on the stance of the attacker, but for someone with a pole arm the depth difference between the upper arm and the face is over a foot.

It's safe enough under the right circumstances.

And I think this is a question of cirmcumstances.
Ferry nuff.
In 14th/15thC re-enactment you'd never be allowed on the field without a helmet. That's whats appropriate for the equipment and conventions of those re-enactors.

Obviously, it's different for these earlier re-enactors.
We need the big helmets so that we can catch the fox and then.... :twisted:
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Post by Fox »

Alan_F wrote:We need the big helmets so that we can catch the fox and then.... :twisted:
You're welcome to try and do that anytime you feel brave enough.
If it's you that gets :shock: then you'll know I wasn't in the mood. :wink:

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Post by GuyofBurgundy »

Admittedly a helmet is the first item of armour a person should accquire in our group under the new regs- one sample section-
Freeman:
Ideal: simple skullcap helm, no body armour.
Acceptable: Simple nasal helm, light gambeson, arming cap worn as head protection.
Unnacceptable: Maille armour of any kind, chausses

This is the lowest fighting rank within the society (the only lower being villein, and they are living history members not carrying arms of the lowest order; see the basket weaver) and most of those unhelmed on the welsh side (black/red, white cross) do actually own helms, I was just a muppet and forgot to check everyone owned arming caps and had the neccersary fitting done first. With all the other work I had on, it somehow got forgotten. :S

Oh and apparently someone wanted to know about us wearing surcoats in general given the group's period; we're now officially late twelfth century (earlier end of our dateline being the anarchy) but mainly anchored in the reign of the young king through to Magna Carta; there are specific English images of surcoats in this period; Winchester Bible illuminated capital c.1170 (p 53, C. Gravett, 'Norman Knight AD 950-1204', Osprey publishing), Wall paintings from Claverly Church, Shropshire c.1190-1200, (p43, D. Nicolle, 'Knight Hospitaller', Osprey publishing).
We also, as a Norman group, accept evidence from France (especially seeing as our period is the height of the Angevin empire)- Ivory Chess Knight, Southern French 12th Century (p.16, D.Nicolle, 'French Medieval Armies', Osprey publishing), Images of Crusaders in the Templar Church at Cressac- 12th century. (http://free1020.blogspot.com/) - admittedly in the last case these could either be early surcoats or templar or hospitallers wearing cappa over their armour; but in some cases the images do seem to show the garments as being sleeveless. The best estimate on the date for Cressac is 1160's, thus meaning if they ARE surcoats, it's the earliest image of them recorded (unless someone knows an earlier one).

Ta,
-Dan-
Last edited by GuyofBurgundy on Sat May 24, 2008 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by zauberdachs »

Looks good.

What else have you got lined up for the summer?
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Post by Nigel »

nope earliest we can put a sucote on a knight is 1160's
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Ariarnia »

zauberdachs wrote:Looks good.

What else have you got lined up for the summer?
Not to sure at the mo.

We have a couple of regular school shows, and have been offered a few welsh shows, looking at transport at the mo, as most don't drive.

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