Had To Show Off...

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El Frog
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Had To Show Off...

Post by El Frog »

I've just managed to find a helm that fits, and had to use that as an excuse to dress up! Roll on the summer when I get to do this every week!

Image


Before anyone comments on it, my coif is missing as I need to make a few adjustments (including making it fit under my great helm!), and I'm waiting for Roger to finish my arm and leg armour.
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Simon_Diment
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Post by Simon_Diment »

Hi Froggy

Not a bad start at all matey :D

The helm would put you at either the cutting edge of technology for the late C12th or looking slightly dated for the C13th - either way you need to lengthen the sleeves of you hauberk, as a knight if you afford the canines danglies for a helm you can afford the rest of the body armour.

Personally I'd change the sword belt too, buckles are later, it should be tie fastening. Question for you too - what is that around your neck under the surcoat, if it's plate then that's later too.

But again good effort, see you on the battlefield at some point 8)
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Biro
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Post by Biro »

Oo! you look just like your avatar! :lol:

Echoing Simon's comments.. A good starting point - and as long as you take all comments as constructive, you'll do fine.

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Zachos
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Post by Zachos »

To add my comments to those above, with that helm you don't need to wait for plate armour to be made, you need to invest in some maille mittens (with good padding inside) and connect them to your sleeves.

Likewise, breastplates are much later than the style of helmet. You could get away with a coat of plates *possibly*. Its not really my period, so I don't know for sure.

Keep going good sir,

Zac
Slowly realizing just how far is still to go.

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Malvoisin
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Post by Malvoisin »

Zachos wrote:You could get away with a coat of plates *possibly*. Its not really my period, so I don't know for sure.

Zac
If he's 3rd crusade 1200 ish then no he couldn't.
The earliest I know of is 1250 ish from germany: St. Maurice COP and that's rare. More common in the 14thCent (Visby COP) by which time the Templers had all sodomised each other (allegedly) and been burnt at the stake. :wink:

Looking good though El Frog. Like Simon says lose the buckle it's too ermmm... 18thCent.
Roll on the summer when I get to do this every week!
Got lots and lots of 12-13th Cent gigs lined up then have you? :o :lol:
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El Frog
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Post by El Frog »

Thanks for the comments - it's always useful to get other people's views.

I'm aiming for around 1307 as it is the last year of the Templars as an active organisation (no sodomy, but about to be rather blackened of leg as we still refuse to be ruled by French kings), so I BELIEVE I'm more or less ok to use the breastplate.....give or take a year or so.

As to the helm: I had planned to start as an early 12C Templar, but realised that I'd prefer to go for the VERY early 14C as it allowed me to use some of the more fantastic pieces of armour! This was the only (great) helm I could find that would fit on my head, but I'm talking to Roger at Lancasters Armoury to make me a custom job.

What sort (or shape) of great helm can I use to represent the very early 14C for a knight who is part of a very wealthy organisation? Does it sound at all realistic to claim that the helm was my father's, and hence why it is a little old?

The belt buckle: could I get away with it in the 14C? I think I may need some sort of buckle to keep things in place (especially as I will be arming up in front of spectators, so it needs to be relatively quick) - does anyone know where I could get one that is more 14C friendly?



Biro wrote:Oo! you look just like your avatar! :lol:
I know.....sad, isn't it... :(
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Biro
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Post by Biro »

There's a pretty good thread in the 1100-1500 section covering kit for (very) early 14th C - forums/viewtopic.php?t=12638

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Post by Nigel »

BREASTPLATES 1307


NO !!!
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Zachos
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Post by Zachos »

1307, we're talking very little plate, and any plate you do have will be on joints (knees and elbows). Breastplates are reserved for late 14th century and you aren't going to be using Lancaster arms and legs until 1450 at least.
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Post by zauberdachs »

yep, we are talking splint or coat of plates at the best.

The objections are I imagine to the oval buckle shape of the buckle which isn't very period. A "D" shape would be better. A hand cast one one with decoration would be best.
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El Frog
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Post by El Frog »

Zachos wrote:1307, we're talking very little plate, and any plate you do have will be on joints (knees and elbows). Breastplates are reserved for late 14th century and you aren't going to be using Lancaster arms and legs until 1450 at least.
Hmmm....I have breastplates (no plate across the back) as first half 14C armour...

I've been rather worried about using Lancaster arms and legs for a while (not the quality, just the accuracy) so I've now cancelled them.
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Post by guthrie »

If you're after buckles, I usually go to WHite Rose castings. If you can get to TORM they should be there.

(You do know about the re-enactment markets don't you?)

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Post by zauberdachs »

El Frog wrote: Hmmm....I have breastplates (no plate across the back) as first half 14C armour...
What are your sources? Bearing in mind there is a large different for every decade of the 14th century...
Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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El Frog
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Post by El Frog »

guthrie wrote:If you're after buckles, I usually go to WHite Rose castings. If you can get to TORM they should be there.

(You do know about the re-enactment markets don't you?)

Sort of. I suspect I'll leave the buckle as is because it is held in place by rivets, and I have no way of resecuring a new one.
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Post by sally »

El Frog wrote:
guthrie wrote:If you're after buckles, I usually go to WHite Rose castings. If you can get to TORM they should be there.

(You do know about the re-enactment markets don't you?)

Sort of. I suspect I'll leave the buckle as is because it is held in place by rivets, and I have no way of resecuring a new one.
Sew the leather back in place using strong waxed linen thread, its a worthwhile job to change a buckle for something better, relatively cheap and quick to do and adds a lot to the overall impression :)

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Post by PaulMurphy »

Don't waste time doing anything about the buckle - it will be quicker, easier, and not very expensive to replace the whole belt at the same time with something closer to an authentic width and colour which has the correct style of fittings on it. A very basic but complete and presentable belt might set you back £15. Remember also that personal wealth and ornamentation in the Templar order was very much against the Rule, although it does seem that this was quietly ignored for at least some of the time.

As others have pointed out, you need to be very careful to maintain consistency within your portrayal. At the moment, you have a 1307 aim, a helmet from about 1200, and a breastplate from after 1400, so you need to tighten the timeframe considerably and also consider that the military orders are a very specialised area which has to be done well to be effective.

Plus, you need to be able to explain why a Templar knight who is of sound body and fighting age isn't defending some part of Outremer at a time when the order was crying out for every able bodied man to be sent east. My expectation is that there might be one or maybe two able bodied knights in the whole of England in 1307, with the rest of the Order's manpower being made up of retired/disabled knights, plus lower status members and retainers. The same applies for the Hospitallers.

The idea of roving bands of Templars with nothing better to do than involve themselves in petty squabbles in England is an unfortunate side-effect of bad historical fiction, I'm afraid.

Having said all that, you've put some effort into getting this far, so don't be downhearted by the comments we've all made - we'd love to see you get it right, and most of the people on here are more than happy to offer help as well as advice.

Paul.
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Simon_Diment
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Post by Simon_Diment »

As Paul said we all want you to get it right and are willing to offer advice if it's wanted :D

Do you have a copy of 'The Rule of the Templars' by J.M.Upton Ward? It lists the equipment that each brother knight should have in Rule 138:

'Each brother knight of the convent should have..a hauberk, iron hose, a helmet or chapel de fer, a sword, a shield, a lance, a turkish mace, a surcoat, arming jacket, mail shoes and three knives....'

Of course the level of equipment would depend on your rank but it's up to you. Don't forget that the last major battle that they fought was at Acre in 1291 and by 1312 the order had been suppressed, so your kit would be more representative of the late C13th at best. Look at the Maciejowski Bible for example. There are a few extant examples of knights funeral brasses from this period too such as Sir John D'Aubernoun dated 1277 that does admittedly have a buckled sword belt.
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El Frog
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Post by El Frog »

PaulMurphy wrote:...Having said all that, you've put some effort into getting this far, so don't be downhearted by the comments we've all made...
I am already downhearted... :(
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Post by mac (crucesignati) »

PaulMurphy wrote:
Plus, you need to be able to explain why a Templar knight who is of sound body and fighting age isn't defending some part of Outremer at a time when the order was crying out for every able bodied man to be sent east.

Paul.
Do you need to explain this? It depends upon whether he is portraying a Templar in England, or just portraying a Templar as is. I think ultimately it is to show the public the Knight rather than why he maybe here. This is the remit I stick to when I am playing as a member of the Order.
Simon_Diment wrote:
Do you have a copy of 'The Rule of the Templars' by J.M.Upton Ward? It lists the equipment that each brother knight should have in Rule 138:

'Each brother knight of the convent should have..a hauberk, iron hose, a helmet or chapel de fer, a sword, a shield, a lance, a turkish mace, a surcoat, arming jacket, mail shoes and three knives....'
The thing that has to be remembered with the Rule is the date/s of its authorship, it is inconcievable that the Order would dress and arm its combatents in equipment that is 150 yrs out of date (ish). That is like the Royal Marines fighting in afghanistan wearing Victorian equipment.
Simon_Diment wrote:
Of course the level of equipment would depend on your rank but it's up to you. [Y]our kit would be more representative of the late C13th at best.
Equipment would depend upon rank although I believe IMHO that within the exclusive group of Knight the equipment would be standard(ish). I think variations would be influenced by where equipment was supplied from rather than the rank of an individual.

One point of note is that leather armour and longer surcoats survived in the East to a later period than in the West. Conversely I reckon it is also inconcievable that the most affluent and militarily competant organisation of the time would not keep its combatents up to date with current armour and weapon developments.

Frog, if you need any assistance that I maybe able to help with, give me a shout. I don't profess to being an expert in this subject, but I have done a lot of research and kit making in the 10 years I've been playing around as a idol-worshipping, cross-spitting, Christ-denouncing Devil-spawned member of The Order of The Temple of Solomon - all lies of course lol...

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Post by mac (crucesignati) »

...and yes, I know i have no beard :wink:

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Post by Earl Mortimer »

El frog.Chin up mate don't be down hearted.

I was once shoot down for using the word "CHAINMAIL" on my first post 4 years ago.

He slapped me down like a tonne of bricks with out even starting to explain why it was wrong.So your not on your own for being down hearted

You have a good grounding of kit and i bet in a few years time two thirds will be gone and replaced by new.(its the markets you can't help yourself 8)

Listren to the advise and remember the one true goal in life.

You do this for your enjoyment

:D


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Malvoisin
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Post by Malvoisin »

What sort (or shape) of great helm can I use to represent the very early 14C for a knight who is part of a very wealthy
This one: Image

If you really need an uber posh silver buckle try this guy comes highly recommended : http://www.thesilverwyvern.co.uk/test/
For cheaper stuff try: http://www.re-enactment.biz/index.html

Like Earl Mortimer said don't get down hearted mate...
... We've yet to advise you on your civvy (every-day soft) kit yet. :wink:
Any pics of that?
Last edited by Malvoisin on Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zachos
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Post by Zachos »

El Frog wrote: I am already downhearted... :(
Whoa there boy, take a step back and think. Take of your breastplate and re-do the belt and you've got an early 13th century portrayal pretty much sorted. Buy yourself a later period helmet, and your breastplate comes back in use. No-one here was perfect when they first started, definitely not me, but everyone here is just trying to help. I wish I'd had the help earlier than I did, because I made some bad buys.

Zac
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Post by Nigel »

I've now seen the photo

Tricky as the look is sort of right but the detail is wrong

helmet ok

Sword pommel whats that then ?

sword rig get rid and get one thats right basically buckle rivets and its too wide

padding coloured as the sword rig especially what appears to be a modern eyelet and whts the cord doing poking out from under your sleeve

maille too short

already commented on the breastplate

This may seem harsh but you asked and I don't lie
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by Vermin »

Sorry - I have to ask

What is hanging on your Right hip ? (It looks like a bill hook handle ??)

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Post by Medicus Matt »

Is it a trick of the photography or is your sword lacking a scabbard? :shock:

You need a nice one like this for early 13thC......
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zauberdachs
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Post by zauberdachs »

If you keep showing that off I'm going to have to buy one...
Do not be loath, diligent reader, to winnow my chaff, and lay up the wheat in the storehouse of your memory. For truth regards not who is the speaker, nor in what manner it is spoken, but that the thing be true - Nennius, 8th century

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Post by Medicus Matt »

zauberdachs wrote:If you keep showing that off I'm going to have to buy one...
It's working then? Supraliminal advertising, can't beat it.
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Post by Nigel »

Vermin wrote:Sorry - I have to ask

What is hanging on your Right hip ? (It looks like a bill hook handle ??)
I suspect its a very nasty looking scram
There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Post by WorkMonkey »

One of these I reakon.

Image
WORKMONKEY: The Wilderness Years.
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Look at the monkey, funny monkey
Little red monkey, acting so fidgety

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