And the dress

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seamsmistress
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And the dress

Post by seamsmistress »

An attempt at a slightly better picture!
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Img_0136.worked.jpg

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Xioumi
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Post by Xioumi »

You look lovely! What a beautiful dress. The Violinist in the background is a nice touch.

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Post by lidimy »

Cooo!
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Lord Byron
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Re: And the dress

Post by Lord Byron »

seamsmistress wrote:An attempt at a slightly better picture!
Was that you I was talking to just outside the Armoury at Detling on Monday afternoon, just after me (the young speccy soldier) and Ian (the older chap) had withdrawn the Vickers Machine Gun for the WW1 battle that afternoon and were loading the belt with the blanks? If it was, I would have said a proper hello had I known!

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Post by Maerwynn »

You look absolutely stunning and I am green with envy

<wipes drool off keyboard>azxscvbnm,.;

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Re: And the dress

Post by seamsmistress »

[quote="Lord ByronWas that you I was talking to just outside the Armoury at Detling on Monday afternoon, just after me (the young speccy soldier) and Ian (the older chap) had withdrawn the Vickers Machine Gun for the WW1 battle that afternoon and were loading the belt with the blanks? If it was, I would have said a proper hello had I known![/quote]

Yes, that was me :wink: We'll say a proper hello next time- if you recognise me without the wig lol. Mind you, I'll recognise you next time anyway.

BTW, you succeeded where so many people have failed - you made WWII & weapons interesting :shock: Your knowledge and enthusiasm shone through - well done, Sir!

Maerwynn green with envy..........actually, I know exactly how you feel :o I spend all my working life making for everyone else, and I'm usually right at the bottom of the list. At times, it feels like giving away your children [that would be the little angel sleeping in cot, not the two year old mid tantrum!]

A bad case of the shoemakers children.........

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Lord Byron
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Re: And the dress

Post by Lord Byron »

seamsmistress wrote: Yes, that was me :wink: We'll say a proper hello next time- if you recognise me without the wig lol. Mind you, I'll recognise you next time anyway.

BTW, you succeeded where so many people have failed - you made WWII & weapons interesting :shock: Your knowledge and enthusiasm shone through - well done, Sir!
:lol: Considering how hot and stressed I was at the time, the fact I was apparently still coherent amazes me! Thanks for that, I will keep an eye out at future events now I know who I'm looking for.

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Post by Cat »

What a beautiful dress. Did you embroider it, or was the fabric ready-embroidered?
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Post by seamsmistress »

Cat wrote:What a beautiful dress. Did you embroider it, or was the fabric ready-embroidered?
The fabric was already embroidered. One day, I'll make one embroidered from scratch, but we're talking the work of years! That said, there are 2 embroidered pieces I want to do. One is a boys robe, quilted and embroidered held in the Williamsburg collections, dated 1710 and the other is a coat dated 1675 - 79 belonging to Charles XI of sweden, which was displayed in the Modeljon Lions of Fashion Exhibition in Sweden. The embroidery on the last piece had never been completed and the coat therefore never made up. I'd love to see that completed.

So, we know what I'll be doing in my 'spare' time for the rest of my natural then :)

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Post by kate/bob »

can I ask why you're being photographed in my dress?!!!

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Post by seamsmistress »

kate/bob wrote:can I ask why you're being photographed in my dress?!!!
:shock: S'mine, my precious, all mine.

[But replicas are available in a choice of colours for a consideration!]

:wink:

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Tod
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Post by Tod »

I bet you knew this, but...........
When they made men's embroidered waistcoats, they embroidered the silk or backing material and then cut out the pieces and sewed them together. hence the very odd seams you see on some waistcoats. I don't know if they did it for dresses and coats as well though.

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Post by seamsmistress »

Hi Tod

You're right, they did do the embroidery on vests first and then cut out - in fact, material lengths were often embroidered and then sold to the tailor who would have them in his shop for his clients to choose from. Embroiderers also worked on special commissions, producing the work in flat pieces for full suits. Therefore, the individual pattern pieces for the client had to be known and marked up by the tailor before being sent to the embroiderers. This is how I produce embroidered vests now, albeit an embroidery machine is used.

With regards to dresses. Generally, the full width of the cloth has been made use of and therefore they were cut from pre-embroidered/printed lengths. I've seen some which match the patterns in the vertical and horizontal beautifully and others where less attention was paid to this. The more I study 18thC clothing, the more fascinated I become. Close examination of a polonaise 1760 recently highlighted how much attention was paid to the outside appearance - and how little to interior workmanship and finishing, the general rule being doing only what was absolutely necessary.

Okay, putting the hobby horse away now :)

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Post by Tod »

I recently saw a waistcoat that had the front panels embroidered on the backing materail. This included the whole of one side, part of the other side and then the area below the pocket on another area, they had then sewn the pockot flap onto the baking material in its correct place. This would mean that the seam would go across the front panel passing through the top of the pocket flap. On another the seam was from the arm hole and then across the breast finishing at about mid chest.

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Post by seamsmistress »

Sounds peculiar. Where is the waistcoat you saw? Do you have any pictures - I'm having trouble visualising it? Do you mean the piece you saw was embroidered but not made up and the seams across chest and pocket would have been the result if it had been made up? Or is the waistcoat made up with the seams you describe?

In What Clothes Reveal, by Linda Baumgarten, she shows a couple of examples of altered and 'updated' waistcoats. One has a seam going across at the pocket line and it is suggested that this was a cut down for a smaller person/child. Another has a wedge at the armhole, causing 2 seams to finish at a point roughly positioned at collar bone - an alteration to allow for a larger chested wearer than original. A 3rd example shows how a 1770's cutaway style waistcoat was seriously modified to produce a more fashionable look at 1800. The bottom skirts were cut off above the pocket line and the pieces below the pocket line used to make a stand collar. Pieces above the pocket line were used to create narrow insertions under the arms to increase the chest size. The pocket flaps were turned upside down and remodelled to produce welts and repositioned to the new style.

Could any of this apply to the waistcoats you saw?

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Post by Tod »

I'll try to explain a little better, clothing isn't really my thing.
Waistcoat 1 - Bath Costume museum.
Left front panel. Half way down the arm hole to about 6" below the neck line an almost horizontal seam. The seam is almost horizontal passing across the left breast.

Waistcoat embroidery Salisbury Museum.
The backing material looked like a beige silk, it was in picture frame. The whole of the front two panels were there. They had not been cut out. I can't remember which side was which so, side 1: all embroidery completed. No pocket flap. Side two all embroidery completed, but it finished about an inch above where the pocket would go. A second piece for side two had been completely embroidered and had the embroidered pocket flap sewn on in the correct position. The embroidered pocket flap for side 1 was also completed but not cut out.

I tried to take a picture of waistcoat 1 and can mail it to you but it's pretty poor due to the glass case. I wasn't allowed to take a picture in Salisbury museum but maybe they could send you a pic.
If you want a better explanation please give me a call.
Tod

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Post by Cat »

Yep, we've seen the Salisbury museum waistcotes too, un cut out but embroidered. Interestinlgly enough this is how modern Indian shalwar/kameez are done-long length of fabric, embroidery on bodice straight onto fabric, whole garment cut out and sewn later.
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Post by Bucket »

i know the one in Salisbury, although there is a second. I also was naughty and photoed them so her goes. Also i have included a photo of a pair of embroidered shoes 1760 and a pair of gloves hope they are of interest.
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second waistcoat
second waistcoat
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embroidered shoes 1760

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Post by Bucket »

oops haven't done the gloves so here they are
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100_1235 copy.jpg

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Post by Tod »

Yep that's the one I saw in Salisbury.

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Post by caroline »

...and may I just say I saw you and in the flesh at Detling and the photo does not do you or the dress justice. You looked absolutely stunning.
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Post by seamsmistress »

caroline wrote:...and may I just say I saw you and in the flesh at Detling and the photo does not do you or the dress justice. You looked absolutely stunning.
Thankyou :D

Bucket - thanks for posting the pics - super shoes! I can see what Tod was referring to now [Salisbury Museum]. I'm still not sure what I make of it.

There are several examples of embroidered but not made up waistcoats, many different reasons on why not. This one, though, is a bit of a puzzler as I've not seen an example anywhere of a made up waistcoat where there is a join at waist level on one side only. [Doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I haven't seen one]. Possible explanations that come to mind are that perhaps it was designed only to ever be a framed sampler, or perhaps as a shop window exhibit. The workmanship is beautiful, so it's not about inferior workmanship, but I wonder if the silk was so narrow and the length available so short that this is the only way they could embroider a whole waistcoat. I notice that it has the embroidery for the buttons outlined? or completed? bottom right in the frame, consistant with a piece that was intended for use.......

Maybe we'll never know. It certainly raises questions.

Something I saw in the Williamsburg collection which blew me away was 2 waistcoats, embroidered by the same embroiderer in 2 colourways. They were acquired 30 years apart, so didn't come as a pair or from the same collection. We tend to think that garments in a choice of colours is a modern thing - but there they are. I will post the image of these separately.

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Post by seamsmistress »

Although these could be thought of as a pair, the makeup of each waistcoat suggests that these were made by different tailors.
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2 waistcoats, embroidery from the same source [although treatement of the buttons is different] 2 colourways.
2 waistcoats, embroidery from the same source [although treatement of the buttons is different] 2 colourways.

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Post by Neibelungen »

I've seen a couple of examples of embroidered and laced pieces where they fitted them into the width of the cloth regardless of having to piece them in together. It's especially common when the embroidery was part appliqued on and would conceal it.

Again, this piecing isn't an uncommon feature so wouldn't have been seen as unusual. Given that most silks were only around 20" wide, there is always going to be piecing together


There's also the factor of price as well. The embroidery would probably not cost much more than the fabric itself, so an un-joined version would have doubled the fabric required, hence adding perhaps another 1/3rd or more to it's price.

That example would be practically concealed by the position of the pocket flap and then the front edge embroidery would hide most of the rest of the join. At most you'd get a small 2" visible join, but the really fine felling stitches used then, especially on wools would make them near invisible, thou less so on a satin or silk.

The thing to remember is that the embroidery and the tailoring were often done in separate businesses/workshops, so would often work with what was supplied. It's also worth noting that many examples of embroidered but unmade waistcoat sections were made for sale like that and would be fitted to the person, rather than fitted/pattered to size and then sent for embroidery.

It's worth reading some of the notes in Saint-Aubin's Art of the Embroiderer (c1780) for an idea of the way working practises differ from the usual ideas of today.

I've some interesting photos from a british coatee of about 1800-6 (by dating of the buttons) that would almost indicate the use of side darts for fishtailing some 15 years before it became common. However a close inspection of the shaping shows it's just the way they pieced the front and skirt together, as the same things is seen in the rear joins as well. They simply didn't have enough cloth to do the foreparts and rear in one long length.

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Post by Bucket »

i have more detailed photos of that waistcoat including the buttons which i will post tnight. The buttons are finished.

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Post by Mad Mab »

Bit late but 'wow'!. Beautiful dress (and lovely photo!) :D
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Post by Shadowcat »

I own one front of a silk satin waistcoat, tambour embroidered. It has a collar shape, pocket flap shape and buttons all embroidered and ready to cut out. I put the date at about 1780 by the colour and style.I can take photos but don't know how to post 'em. Anybody want to see it, can advise re posting?

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Post by seamsmistress »

Well, I'd sure like to see it and I'm sure others would be interested too. To post pictures to the forum is not too hard. When the post a reply box comes up, underneath is Add an attachment. You can browse and select the image[s] on your computer by clicking the Browse button. Submit and that should be it. Mind you, it took me ages to get the hang of it too :wink:

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Post by Shadowcat »

This should be the bottom front of the waistcoat I own. I daren't iron it, so please 'scuse the wrinkles.

Image

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Post by seamsmistress »

That looks really pretty - any chance of a bigger pic?

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