Uniforms

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William
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Uniforms

Postby William » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:29 pm

Hi

Can anyone recommend a source of 18thC British military uniforms? Off the peg, or custom. Pref UK, but other sources would be good to know too.

Many thanks,

Will



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steve stanley
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Postby steve stanley » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:44 am

Which bit of 18th century?
Steve


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Postby Tod » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:45 am

No one does off the peg, we wish :D
What are you looking for?



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Postby steve stanley » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:49 am

Morning Tod.......


"Give me a tent and a kettle

Snowshoes and axe and gun

Send me up in Grand River

Steering by star and sun".

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Postby Eric the well read » Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:21 pm

Tod wrote:No one does off the peg, we wish :D
What are you looking for?


Hi Tod,
and I'll ask the same question of you!?
Carrying stock of basic garments Shirts, stocks, for any period is easy-
We carry these for any period of 18thC already.
A little more difficult, but not insurmountable are things like waistcoats, breeches, short & frock coats . We know the cut, cloths, colours etc.,
It's not just the financial investment. It's the detail!
While we make uniform for all periods, we are specialists in how clothes/uniforms are made and worn, we cannot define how a regiment 'sees' itself. Each often bringing its' own 'interpretation' of regulations.

Each regiment (of any period) has it's own character and getting any
20 people to agree on what is 'correct' is a nightmare!
So have you any one person (or I don't care - a committee) who would define what is absolutely correct for any particular regiment? If so we would love to hear from he/she or them and while we still cannot promise 'off the peg' for certain items (size is also an issue)! We can have a set of standards to work to. -given that we do have our own quality standards!


Let me know what you think
Regards
Eric



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Postby Tod » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:13 am

Hi Eric,
what name do you trade under?
I don't know wnay one in either Lace Wars or New France Old England who has found any one who sells kit off the peg to the standard we look for (feel free to put me right chaps). All of the stuff I've seen tends to be either a pirate (as in Capt. Jack) or lacks the amount of cloth there should be in a frock coat. Waistcoats are usaully made up out of grandma's curtains and I haven't seen any breeches.
The problem in general, and some of us from LW have talked about this, is that many of the costume makers who specialise (in general) in the 17th century do not understand the cut of the clothing form the 18th. As a result the coats look wrong and end up looking like fancy dress.

You are absolutly correct in saying the details is important. Because of this the people who make us clothing tend to be very experienced and as result the prices are high (maybe not high enough). I have two frock coats, one was made by Warwear and that was made to measure and I was there when it was being done (hours of fun playing with Andy R's son and his toy cars). The other was made by Jenna Saunders, also made to measure (3 fittings). Both are excellent and great examples of mid 18th century clothing. The cloth is good quality, the cut is right, and the amount of cloth in them is the same as examples in the V and A. Unfortunatly both Warwear and Jenna no longer make kit (soft furnishings pays more and is a lot less hassle).

All of out military Regts. are always looking for clothing suppliers. At the moment I know of two. Lizzie Adcock (who makes ace stuff mostly handsewn I think and I can't remember what name she trades under), and Cobham's Dragoons use some one else, again I can't remember who.

If you wanted to supply uniforms then it would be worth contacting the Regts via the Lace Wars web site www.lacewars.co.uk they all have links from there. Don't send to the LW contact as that is me!
As far as highland kit goes, we have that covered, we can get short coats, waistcoats and hose in non clan tartans. So there wouldn't be much business there.

If I was in the costume business the one thing I would focus on would be uniforms, and bespoke frock coats. You said you do shirts, I know that some of us (including me) are looking for shirts right now. These are the type with a button cuff and collar, in white linen, they also need to be long to about 2 -3" above the knee.

I hope this helps. I am happy to collect opinions from LW people for you, Mark P, Gerry and Jon from Pulteney's (the biggest Redcoat Regt. in LW) all post on here. I don't think any of the Dragoons or Flemming's do. Andy R knows a fair bit as well as his wife was Warwear.



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Postby Neibelungen » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:02 am

You can also try Dawn Wood of Ages of Elegance

http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk

She has plenty of experience with 18th C costume, being one of the founding people for the Mannered Mob and has made coats for Poultney's and myself.

Not the cheapest or the fastest, but all her work is bespoke.

The biggest difficulty with off-the-peg coats is that there are too many variations of facing colour and lace pattern at this date to make it practical.

Again, the expense and minimum order requirements for a regt lace would only make it practical for somebody with deep pockets or for regt as a group to commision and supply.



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Postby steve stanley » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:25 am

Been a similiar thread on the NFOE board.....nice thing with the Colonies is that there are unlaced units....(& a couple of plain white lace)
Steve


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Snowshoes and axe and gun

Send me up in Grand River

Steering by star and sun".

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Postby Matt_D » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:28 pm

Tod,
Cobhams and the RA both go to Anne Farnsworth (Historic Costume Company).
She does a good job on kit, she made our Crimea coatees and greatcoats according to the originals in Richmond.

Matt



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Postby Tod » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:35 pm

I thought it was, but didn't want to post with out being sure.



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Postby Eric the well read » Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:56 pm

Hi Tod,
First of all I'm not going to quote you all the way through your post,but I'll
try and take your points in order.
We are Chimera costumes -we don't really make costume -and definitely not fancy dress! We make historical clothing, and clothing that lasts.
-17th C costumiers...We think that to make something properly you have to understand where the fashion details came from and what they evolved into and while there are cases of furnishing textiles being used in ladies clothing (one is a dress with a quilted petticoat made from a bedspread)!
There are no examples I can think of where clothing evolved from curtains
unless it was in a Whitehall Farce (showing my age)!


Regarding frock coats:- We believe that you can't understand clothing until you've worn it. The almost full circle of material in the back of the mid 18thC frock coat and the padded chest makes you carry yourself completely differently to say a girdlesteaded pair of tudor hose.But that is where detail comes into its own and we work as hard on the bits you don't see.......
A lot of our work this year is 18th C indeed, we've done a wedding suit for a gentleman from the "mannered mob" and have just finished another at 1775. Next are for a full wedding party at Williamsburg-and we're attending! So V & A research and material retailing at £120 per metre
Whoopee! a suit for me! Sorry, I'll calm down now!

You're right in general, costumiers don't and can't charge enough,
(How much would you have to pay for a handmade suit on the High St. for example)-but we insist that all our clothing & embroidery is designed and made on site -that's the only way to check at every stage of production and make sure that you get exactly what you want.


Shirts -Yes they're the right ones -long enough to keep your 'bits' warm!
and copied from primary source.

Yes, we will be contacting the regiments of Lace Wars, but it won't be today! and thank you for that idea.

Very kind of you to offer to collect information and we'd love to liaise with you on that. Are you at Cusworth Hall this year? Beginning of August isn't it? We could discuss with you there as it's only 3 miles from us,otherwise, Kelmarsh or Detling?
Anybody else with difficulties obtaining basic items?

Regards
Eric



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Postby Tod » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:08 pm

Eric I've PMed you.



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Postby Eric the well read » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:27 pm

And replied :D
Regards
Eric



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Postby Andy R » Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:41 pm

steve stanley wrote:Been a similiar thread on the NFOE board.....nice thing with the Colonies is that there are unlaced units....(& a couple of plain white lace)
Steve


And in the 1742 clothing book as well...!

According to Funken, the 15th, 26th, 44th, and 45th had yellow facings and no lace, and the 14th buff facings and no lace.

The 5th, 10th, 20th, 28th, 30th, 35th, 38th, 39th, 41st 43rd (ex 44th) and 50th (ex 51st) all had plain white lace as well as the F.oot Guards.

The colonials of course had dark green facings and no lace except for the 60th who had blue facings.

Simplified leather work as well with some independant companies...


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Postby Lochinvar » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:12 am

In a vaguely related way, can anyone please advise me on the attachment of British Army hat cockades (for the ordinary hatmen) in the Seven Years War?
None of my illustrations are clear enough.

The impression I have is that the cockade is held in place by a loop of dark cord/leather? which runs from inside the brim and round a metal button, but I could be very wrong. :?

Any top tips or detailed piccies gratefully received.



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Postby Lochinvar » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:21 am

Eric the well read wrote:There are no examples I can think of where clothing evolved from curtains
unless it was in a Whitehall Farce (showing my age)!


Dear Eric,
You obviously never saw WRAC Officers' mess kit in the eighties. I reckon that was made from some old curtains!!!!!! :D
Last edited by Lochinvar on Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby Neibelungen » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:55 pm

Usually it's the button that holds the cocade in place. Stitches through to the hat. It's not uncommon for the larger pleated cocades and fans to stitched down independently from behind, especially once they moved towards embossed leather.

Later napoleonic ones often have a longer shank on the button that uses the plume stem to hold the button and plume together inside a leather plume socket. French pattern cocades are often wired into place on the outer edges or else have a wire pin that slots into the plume holder.


The tape cord is often just a false strip sewn down behind and caught at the bottom. Originally it would have been a binding round the crown of the hat holding the fan up in place, but ended up purely decorative before too long, rather than functional. Occasionally you get pairs of laces woven through to hold the fans (cocking) up into a particular pattern especially on later french officers hats.



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Postby Lochinvar » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:37 pm

Thank you. You have clearly crawled your way around more than a few hats.

Most of my illustrations (and here I admit that the lack of clarity prompted my query in the first place) give the impression that the button does not sit right in the centre of the cockade, but rather that the button lies directly 'South' of the cockade. (i.e. If the cockade vaguely ressembles a bow-tie, the button looks as if it is directly below the knot).

Would there be any variety between and within regiments? Would it matter?
Last edited by Lochinvar on Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby Neibelungen » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:51 pm

I'm sure that there were lots of variations between the regiments and individual hat-makers at that time.

There's no specific regulations, so almost anything would have gone as long as it appeared close to the vague descriptions that were outlined.

Cuthbertson tends to be used as a guide (and although later in date 1780? ) was only a manual of recommendations rather than being anything official.

On the bow tie type cocade, there's no real central point for the button to sit, so primarily tends to be the termination point for the hat loops. That's why they look a bit odd in some illustrations. It's the round pleated cocade that uses the button as a central pin.



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Postby Mark P. » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:08 pm

Attached is an extract from Sketch Book '76 by Robert L Klinger which I would heartily recommend to anyone.
Although its a little later than SYW I think its still applicable.
As said before there would not necessarily be a defined, authorised regulation way of displaying the cockade but these seem a pretty good example of a way it could be done.
For earlier periods such as WAS and SYW I prefer the 'bow tie' cockade although for Jacobites the 'rossette' style could also be acceptable.

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Postby Lochinvar » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:36 am

Thank you both. I think I have sufficient idea.




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