c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

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paddyrat
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c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby paddyrat » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:07 pm

Hi all.

I am trying to ID this Leather Bag I bought some years ago. It is, I believe, a Cartridge Bag.

There is an early 19th century Crowned GR along with an inked 1820 date.

There's a makers name STEEDMAN.

This is certainly a genuine piece and Im looking for any of you who can perhaps tell me if my suspicions are right.

Many thanks
Attachments
Captured 2009-4-14 00027.JPG
Captured 2009-4-14 00025.JPG
Captured 2009-4-14 00024.JPG



paddyrat
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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby paddyrat » Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:11 pm

More pictures of the Bag
Attachments
Captured 2009-4-14 00034.JPG
Captured 2009-4-14 00031.JPG
Captured 2009-4-14 00032.JPG



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Lord Byron
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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby Lord Byron » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:26 pm

The bag looks more like 1900 than 1800 from the style and construction, I would suggest the markings are probably spurious...


"If I am a fool it is, at least, a doubting one; and I envy no-one the certainty of his self-approved wisdom".

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paddyrat
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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby paddyrat » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:35 pm

Thanks for your response.

I understand what your saying, but I cannot work out why anyone would try faking the marks, In my humble opinion the marks look well aged and certainly possibly from the period of 1800.

Am I correct that its a Cartridge Bag?



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John Waller
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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby John Waller » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:15 pm

paddyrat wrote:.

Am I correct that its a Cartridge Bag?


I don't think so. At least not military issue. Never seen a C19th british military cartridge bag/box with two fasteners. Think about the problems of getting it open in a hurry. Black (or white) was also the usual colour of boxes & pouches in the C19th. If military issue you might expect to see a WD mark and/or the broad arrow mark. There is nothing like it in Turner's Soldier's Accoutrements book. Brass fittings and roller buckles also point to a later date. 20th century I would say.


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paddyrat
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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby paddyrat » Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:01 pm

Ive never seen that style of Crowned GR on a 20th century item.

And the lettering and numbers are exactly as I would expect on an early 19th century item



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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby Grymm » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:30 am

Are you sure it's military? I used to have GR and crown leather boxes and bags when I worked for BT, all stuff left over from the GPO. It could be postie or a (telephone) linemans bag or kit from one of the other essential services that belonged to the country afore Maggie flogged them all off.


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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby Redders » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:01 am

I'm thinking Posties/messengers bag or similar. (Civilian or Military)
Definitely NOT a Cartridge pouch.
Really not sure about that 1820 date.



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John Waller
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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby John Waller » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:34 am

Grymm wrote:Are you sure it's military? I used to have GR and crown leather boxes and bags when I worked for BT, all stuff left over from the GPO. It could be postie or a (telephone) linemans bag or kit from one of the other essential services that belonged to the country afore Maggie flogged them all off.



S'what I was thinking. Civilian services possibly.


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Frank Packer
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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby Frank Packer » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:42 pm

A friend suggested that I might be able to contribute to this discussion. I have to admit to lurking around this forum for a couple of years; but have not registered until now.

I had a much longer and detailed reply prepared, which really only adds documentation and weight to what others have already stated -- that the 1820 (or IBZO) marking is certainly NOT a date, that the markings are NOT like early 19th century marks found on known leather or textile items, that this design does not match any known artifacts from the early 19th century, and as Mr Waller has already clearly noted the presence of roller buckles is a giant waving flag that this item would not have been made in Britain any earlier than the 1840s, and likely much later. I do however have a sense that the original poster may not be very interested in information which refutes his pre-conceived and hopeful expectations of what this item is. I hope that I am wrong, and I am certainly happy to take the time to provide more information on all of these points if it is of actual interest.

In terms of adding new information, I should note that this bag can obviously and definitively not be from the early 19th century when it is MACHINE SEWN. The photographs which have been posted clearly show at the very least a row of machine stitching along the back of the pouch, and that the two closure straps have been machine-sewn to the flap. A closer physical inspection would probably show the entire construction by machine. Nevertheless, with any part of it sewn by machine this bag is stylistically improbable in Britain prior to the 1860s and actually impossible prior to the 1840s. An artifact has to exist not only within a cultural framework of how workers preferred to make items, and how customers preferred certain shapes, forms, or structures; but also within the boundaries of what technology was available at the time.

A pattern of civilian satchel matching this item is found in Paul Hasluck's manual, "Leather Working", from 1904. It is also described there alternatively as a "Cartridge Bag", which is perhaps where this specific phrase has developed. Rather than the folksy, retro, hobby how-to books that they became after the 1960s, work manuals from the early twentieth century were intended as instruction for apprentices and students entering the industry (The first lesson in Hasluck is how to make one gross [twelve dozen] leather garters!). As such the patterns presented are those currently in use and produced by the industry at the time -- not copies of ancient designs. As secondary evidence one can look through the other related designs presented by Hasluck -- his "knapsack" is a pattern which only comes into use around the turn of the century; and his design of a "Portmanteau" is that of a rectangular trunk, a terminology which is only prevalent after the 1880s, before which a portmanteau means a completely different item. One should also note that Hasluck's example of a "satchel" (and the item which is the subject of this thread) does not conform to known patterns of civilian satchels from the early 19th century, either in design or construction. It's inclusion in Hasluck's manual shows that this particular design of satchel was in production in the first years of the twentieth-century.

LeatherworkingHasluck1904Image.jpg
Hasluck, 1904
LeatherworkingHasluck1904Image.jpg (8.82 KiB) Viewed 3187 times


The pouch presented in this thread is an item containing buckles which were not utilised for that purpose in Britain in the early 19th century. It matches no particular design of military equipment from the early 19th century. It matches no particular example of civilian equipment from the early 19th century. It is also constructed using technology and tools which did not exist in the early 19th century. I don't know how much more clearly it can be explained that this item is NOT from the early 19th century. As others have already stated, it is a nice if unremarkable example of a 20th century, mass-produced, government-issue utility satchel. I understand how disheartening that can be if one has paid large money believing that this is something that it is not (or was misled by a dealer), or if one was hoping to sell for large money on an auction site perhaps, sometime soon perhaps. Unfortunately neither disappointment nor wishful thinking can make items into what they are not.

I am more than happy to try to suggest leads if anyone would wish to research this item further, through design manuals, trade directories, government contracts. I sincerely do not believe that anything will turn up that would alter the conclusions already made here that this item is from the 1910s-1930s though.

Frank



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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby Tod » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:55 pm

I'd agree with the above, sewing machines came into thier own after 1870. As its lined its likely to be for carrying some thing that could be damaged by a rough leather inner. As it has carbine clips it could a despatch (riders?) bag. Its too small for letters so maybe telegrammes.
I would try and see if you can find any pictures of despatch riders or telegramme boys or see if there is a Post Office museum any where.



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Re: c.1800 Leather Cartridge Bag, help needed

Postby John Waller » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:39 am

Tod wrote:I'd agree with the above, sewing machines came into thier own after 1870. As its lined its likely to be for carrying some thing that could be damaged by a rough leather inner. As it has carbine clips it could a despatch (riders?) bag. Its too small for letters so maybe telegrammes.
I would try and see if you can find any pictures of despatch riders or telegramme boys or see if there is a Post Office museum any where.



Don't think it's a telegram boy's pouch. They seem to have had small pouches on a waist belt. It could be a shotgun cartridge bag, but if so, having two fasteners is unusual. If the GR mark is genuine might it be a royal household item? I've not been able to find anything on the maker. Might they have held a royal warrant? Perhaps worth going down that route?


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