Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

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Rob Elliott
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Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Rob Elliott » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:32 am

I'm getting some kit together for Fitzjames Horse, Irish units in French service who reinforced the Jacobites in the 45' Campaign.

I'm doing some research on the coats, cuirass, horse furniture and swords etc...with the hope I will be able to get something together for next season.

If anyone has any info on Fitzjames I would be very grateful. I have lots of stuff on the Govt. side but very little on the Jacobite side. Can anyone recomend any decent reading besides the Osprey books?



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Andy R
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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Andy R » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:02 pm

David Blackmore sent me loads of stuff years back from when he worked at the armouries.

All the tack and equipment is recorded in great detail by the French.

My favourite piece of artwork on them is Gerry Embleton's picture in Like Hungry Wolves

Potential problems that imediately come to mind are Regimental lace and sword pattern.

The sword looks similar (ish) to this nasty Injun re-hash (but with a much prettier scabbard)
http://www.medieval-arms.co.uk/ma/action-detail/item_id-344/french-battle-of-valmy-sword,-circa-1790-to-1800.html

I think a lot would depend on how much of a compromise you want to make. Your Cobham's small clothes could work for Fitzjames if you ignore the regimental lace. The carriage could also probably be used (different buckle), boots would be fine, remember metalic lace on the hat.

They seem an oddity as the button and hat lace colour don't match, but Reid says only the officers had gold hat lace

Horse furnitue is described as red trimmed with Fitjames livery (Embleton shows it as white with green lines going across the lace, and Chris Warner shows it as white with green chevrons) This is a wider version of the lace used on the small clothes.

As an aside, we have just started talks with a couple of bridle makers to get period tack done at equestrian rates rather than re-enactment rates, so I hope to have some idea of what sort of price they can offer soon.

Good luck, and I look forward to seeing the end result..!!


BR
Andy


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die

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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Rob Elliott » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:36 pm

Thanks for that Andy

Davids helping me with this project.

Its a nice pic from Embleton, I think I'll be able to get a fairly decent coat pattern from the few pics I have. I understand theres an original sword at the armouries from Fitzjames. I was thinking of commissioning armourclass to make me one based on the original perhaps, though it may be a tad expensive.

I agree, the hat lace and brass buttons seem a bit odd.

The pic from Chris Warner with the chevron lace, where is that shown??



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Andy R » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:45 pm

Rob Elliott wrote:The pic from Chris Warner with the chevron lace, where is that shown??


Osprey MAA "The Wild Geese" - an old book from before they started numbering them. Some of the artwork is a bot off, and I would give Embleton the benefit of the doubt every day, but it does have some nice pictures.

There's also Fitzjames's horse in France who work with the Ecossois over there - no idea what they have, but I dare say they would share their research.



cheers,
Andy


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Andy R » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:49 pm

While I remember - armourclass can only wor with plate brass last I asked - as this is a cast hilt they will not be able to reprodice it faithfully. You may be able to get a cast done of the original depending on how lucky you are (a mate of mine managed to take a mold of the brasswork from a 1812 pattern dragoon helmet from which he made the stamps that Alan Larson uses now - so anything is possible.)

But I would certainly go for an armourclass blade over a nast Indian one.


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby John Waller » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:11 pm

Ref swords. This one came up for sale last year

Description: With fullered single-edged blade (areas of pitting) double-edged towards the point, the forte etched 'Fitziames Cavallerie' along one side and with a crowned martial trophy centred on three fleur-de-lys on the other, representing France, regulation brass hilt with D-shaped knuckle-guard and rear quillon with scrolled terminal, pointed langets (one incomplete), scallop-shaped side-guard linked to the knuckle-guard by two scrolled bars above, inner thumb-ring en suite, pommel and faceted back-piece in one, the former with button finial, and wooden grip bound with twisted brass wire


http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a ... wzrk1y35hx
Last edited by John Waller on Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Andy R » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:12 pm

Here it is
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/The-Wild-Geese_9780850453584/

Now it is MAA 102 - my copy is just very old.


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Rob Elliott » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:08 pm

Andy R wrote:Here it is
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/The-Wild-Geese_9780850453584/

Now it is MAA 102 - my copy is just very old.


Cheers. I've not got that one.



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Andy R » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:30 pm

The 1740 artwork is quite questionable, but it is 30 years old.


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Zhenya » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:06 am

All these people in Lace Wars all wanting to portray Irish soldiers. Yet offer them an all expenses paid trip to Ireland to come to an event.......and you won't see them for dust :D :D :roll:



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Andy R » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:13 am

Zhenya wrote:All these people in Lace Wars all wanting to portray Irish soldiers. Yet offer them an all expenses paid trip to Ireland to come to an event.......and you won't see them for dust :D :D :roll:


Is that you Mr Logan?


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Nigel » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:25 pm

If you wnat I could always ask Stuart for you seeing him in the next couple of weeks


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Rob Elliott » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:26 pm

Nigel wrote:If you wnat I could always ask Stuart for you seeing him in the next couple of weeks


Stuart???



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Andy R » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:41 pm

..Reid - author of Like Hungry Wolves and many other titles with similar content


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Rob Elliott » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:23 pm

Andy R wrote:..Reid - author of Like Hungry Wolves and many other titles with similar content


...of course.

Thanks, any further info would be helpful.



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Nigel » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:19 pm

No bother

Assuming Iam allowed to talk history with him I'll ask the blighter


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Hraefn » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:30 pm

Zhenya wrote:All these people in Lace Wars all wanting to portray Irish soldiers. Yet offer them an all expenses paid trip to Ireland to come to an event.......


Are there any Government redcoats left or have they all gone or going feral? Sorry that last word should've read Irish, French or dodgy mancs.


That's my score to date. Three. I haven't killed anybody for years, and don't intend to ever again.'

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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Vic James » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:21 pm

Zhenya , Andy R and Hraefn ,, is the comments about a Irish event an `in joke` ?
If so fine .
If it not ,,I have just talked to the officer of `Dillions` and he knows nothing about it
and would like to :-)



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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby Andy R » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:32 pm

Hi Vic,

Get Andy to talk to Mr "Zhenya" Logan.

NFOE did events over at the Ulster American Folk Park back in the late 90's, and those who went raved about them.

See you next season,
Andy


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



http://www.16ld.org

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Re: Fitzjames Horse for Lace Wars

Postby FitzjamesHorse » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:16 pm

The Fitzjames Horse units destined for Scotland at the end of 1745 were mostly intercepted at sea and imprisoned. Only about 75 actually made it to Scotland. The horses did not arrive and I have always assumed that this meant the horse furniture did not arrive either. For early 1746, Fitzjames Horse were mounted on horses taken from other Jacobite cavalry units.
As to livery, the colours mentioned above......red trimmed with green, white are usually mentioned although for purposes of painting toy soldiers, I use red......with a green and yellow edge.
All of this seems variable.....a French illustration for 1740 shows red saddle cloth with blue and white edging. The Trooper headgear shows a blue cavalry "tail".
An illustration for 1757 shows a red saddlecloth edged in white/black. The troopers headgear is a bearskin.

Ensigns....at 1738 it was Red....with gold "French" "sunburst" on one side...plain red on the other.......edged in gold
at 1740 traditional gold/yellow "sunburst" on one side......gold with multiple "fleurs de lys" on reverse




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