Records or history of the Hanovarian army 1745/6

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Records or history of the Hanovarian army 1745/6

Postby Tod » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:57 am

Does any one know of any sources or records for the location or what the Hanoverian Army was doing at the time of the 1745 Jacobite Rising.
Note for those who think I mean the army under the control of the British Government I don't that's the BRITISH ARMY.
Please don't hijack this thread as this is for genuine research.



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Postby steve stanley » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:10 am

Do you mean in Scotland or in Europe?
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Postby Tod » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:29 am

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
The Hanoverian Army never went to Scotland EVER EVER EVER EVER.
I know you do it to wind me up, and it works.



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Postby steve stanley » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:47 am

Very little detail,other than forming part of the "Pragmatic army" under Cumberland at Fontenoy...presumably they continued to serve in that theatre 'til 1748?
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Postby Mark P. » Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:19 pm

Try checking out the dates of European land battles and seiges between Sept 1745 and Sept 1746 from a general modern history of the WAS then read the specific reports from the London Gazette and Gentlemans Magazine (both available online) to get an idea of which Hannoverian units were there and what they did.
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Postby Mark P. » Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:53 pm

As an indication of how ingrained the 'Hanoverian' misnomer is amongst Jacobite sympathisers check this quote from a website on Rob Roy

John Graham of Claverhouse. Dundee, known by his supporters as ‘Bonnie Dundee’, was to meet the Hanoverian army of William of Orange led by General Hugh MacKay at Killiekrankie on the 17th of July 1689.



(http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/robroy.html)
http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/robroy.html

General MacKay actually led a Scottish army at Killiekrankie.

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Postby steve stanley » Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:58 pm

And in Duffy's book,he refers to Hanoverian,every time it should be British....And that's as up-to-date as it gets!
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Postby Neil Johnston » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:31 pm

Sorry Tod to take this off on a tangent but in regard to the use of Hanoverian here's my tuppence worth.

I think this was a commonly used Jacobite term in Scotland of the time for a supporter of the House of Hanover. It was used in a derogatory way and implies that, whoever these usurpers or their adherents thought they were, their legitimacy was being called into question. The word German was also used prominently at the time in ballads and poetry, it is a classic propaganda tool......they are all foreigners and not representative of us.

I know it is not an accurate description of the British army of the time and is a very subjective term but I would suggest in a re-enactment situation it is probably quite acceptable for the Jacobites to call the redcoats "Hanoverian*********" (insert your own expletive :wink: ) but NOT for historians or others to retrospectively call them the Hanoverians which as we all know were the citizens of the state of Hanover.

Interestingly many later Jacobite songs and ballads use the term Hanoverian for the enemies of the Jacobite Army probably because the Victorians didn't want to upset the British consensus of that time.
This has also probably partly led to its continued common use in Scotland today as many of these ballads are still popular and often mention great victories over shot shy Hanoverians :)

Cheers
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Postby Tod » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:36 pm

Yep, I agree with all of that, especally the bit about historians should know better (in not so many words).



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Postby Mark P. » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:01 pm

Heres a bit of secondary info about the Battle of Rocour, 11th October 1746 from an article by Peter Lenders in the Seven Years War Association Journal Vol. VIII No. 2. At this satge the first few Battalions of the British Army were starting to return from Scotland.


The centre of the Allied army, was under command of the English general Ligonier and the Hannoverian general Zastrow. The villages Rocour, Varoux and Liers formed their front and were defended by 8 battalions.:

Rocour by the Hessian Mansbach battalion. and by the English regiments of "Green"Howard (19th Foot) and Graham (11th Foot);
Varoux by the Hanoverian regiments. Boselager and Maydell and the Hessian regiment Donop;
Liers by the Hanoverian regiment Garde (2nd) and Zastrow.
This entrenched front line was backed by the rest of the same contingent. However the composition of the second and third line of the centre is not quite clear.

In the 2nd line:

infantry; the Hanoverian regts. Garde (1st), Klinkowstrom, Horn, Hugo, Borch, Block and Sommerfeld, the Hessian regts. Garde, Prinz Friedrich and Grenadiere and the English regiments Douglas (32nd Foot) and Johnson (33rd Foot) (12 batt);
cavalry; the Hanoverian cavalry regts. Leib, Hammerstein, Wrede, Behr, Hardenberg and the Pontpietin-dragoons, the Hessian cavalry regts. Leib, Graffendorf and the Bentheim cuirassiers and the English dragoon regts. of Cope (7th Dragoons) and Stair (6th Dragoons) (31 sqds);

In the 3rd line:

infantry; the Hanoverian regts HauB, Sporken, Oberg, Freudemann and Durchtleben, the Hessian regts Prinz Max and the English regiments of Pulteney(13th Foot), Sempill (25th Foot) and Wolfe (8th Foot) (9 btns);
cavalry; the Hanoverian regts. Schultzen and Montigny and the dragoon regts. Wendt and Adelepsen, the Hessian regts. Isenburg and Prinz Max and the English Rothes'(regt ?)-dragoons (19 sqds).

This gives a total for the English/Hanoverian/Hessian contingent of 29 battalions. and 50 squadrons

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Postby Merlon » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:13 am

Unfortunately I cannot read German but if you can the following books may be of help
Niemeyer/Ortenburg, The Hanoverian Army During the SYW, Beckum1977 („Gemnunder Prachtwerk Part 1“ / ISBN: 87-85216-06-2)
Ronnenberg, Abbildungen der kurhannöverschen Arméeuniformen, Hannover 1979 (ISBN: 387706177X)
The following website again mostly in German is a renenactment site that deals with Hanoverian military mostly Napoleonic but some earlier elements. Maybe they could give you some pointers as to where to start your research
http://www.necasperaterrent.de/



Merlon

Postby Merlon » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:54 am

The Hanoverian Army During the Seven Years War (ISBN: 8785216062)
Joachim Niemeyer and Georg Ortenburg .
Its currently on abebooks bit steep though at £60.00



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Postby Mark P. » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:55 pm

A quick skim through the events of the campaign seems to indicate that all the towns taken by the French after Fontenoy in 1745 had Dutch/Austrian Garrisons. The 1746 campaign had a very late start June/July I think so it may be that the Hanoverian Army was 'in winter quarters' in Hanover for the whole period under consideration.

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Postby Gerry » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:51 pm

No wonder the British soldiers had a downer on Jacobites. Whisked away to set up camp in the wilds of Scotland, in January, while their allies in europe are tucked up nice and warm in winter quarters.


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Postby Tod » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:18 pm

Gerry wrote:No wonder the British soldiers had a downer on Jacobites. Whisked away to set up camp in the wilds of Scotland, in January, while their allies in europe are tucked up nice and warm in winter quarters.


And lots of pig products for breakfast.



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Postby Tod » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:20 pm

Merlon wrote:The Hanoverian Army During the Seven Years War (ISBN: 8785216062)
Joachim Niemeyer and Georg Ortenburg .
Its currently on abebooks bit steep though at £60.00


The SYW is too late. I'm particularly interested in 1745/46.



Merlon

Postby Merlon » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:51 pm

True the Seven Years War is later, but the bibliography in that book will lead you to other sources which may well cover your research point.
Good luck



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Postby Mark P. » Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:24 pm

A couple of references to the location and actions of the actual Hanoverian Army in 1746 from a SYWA journal article.

In Feb 1746 the Hanoverian general Ilten refused to let his cavalry join in a counter attack against the French besiegers by the Garrison of Brussels.

During May 1746 13,000 Hanoverians joined the allied Army at Breda under command of Gen' Waldeck.


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Postby Andy R » Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:47 pm

Tod wrote:The SYW is too late. I'm particularly interested in 1745/46.


It may be later, but it is more interesting.

You start seeing the development of the armies in to what they would become by the Napoleonic period. More emphasis on light troops and cavalry.

You should branch out and maybe buy a whitecoat or ten (or 20)


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