1745 Highlanders - what not to wear

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1745 Highlanders - what not to wear

Postby Tod » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:58 pm

After the beards in the 18th century thread, and the comments on what some re-enactors think they should be wearing or carrying I thought I'd start a new thread.

More LW people are logging on here so we may as well make best use of the site and get the word out there. If this gets complicated I'll break it down into new threads, under different subject matter.

Easy one to start with.

Dirks, daggers and knives.
Best reference The Sword and Sorrows.
Wrong types. Any thing with an acid etched blade. Any thing with a chrome tipped scabbard, plastic handled knives, and those modern drum major dirks with the black grips and pretty nails or witha big stone in the grip.



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Postby m300572 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:11 pm

Hounds tooth check jackets.


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Postby Tod » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:14 pm

Targes with any sheepskin/fleece on.



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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:10 pm

Anular (Penanular??) brooches.
Scraps of tartan wrapped arround the leg instead of hose.
Cloth bonnets
Lack of coats
Lack of muskets and bayonets
too many basket hilts and targes


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Postby steve stanley » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:20 pm

"Jacobite" shirts with criss-cross lacing
leather/sheepskin jerkins
two-handed swords
God,we're venting years of spleen here!!
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Postby Tod » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:23 pm

Leather thonging up the calf (criss crossed) over the top of hose.
Hose over the top of trews.
Denix any era pistols usaully some rare odd things.
Big flappy collared or "Gillie" shirts.



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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:25 pm

lack of stocks
ECW muskets


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Postby steve stanley » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:28 pm

Modern knitted tartan hose
Steve


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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:30 pm

steve stanley wrote:Modern knitted tartan hose
Steve


(They do look comfy though, if not a tad expensive) :oops:


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Postby Tod » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:45 pm

Andy R wrote:lack of stocks
ECW muskets

Nothing wrong with old guns, unless of coarse we discover the hole in time that all the old swords and guns came through.
B****r, old swords (medieval) and claymores (as in two handers)



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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:55 pm

Tod wrote:Nothing wrong with old guns, unless of coarse we discover the hole in time that all the old swords and guns came through.
B****r, old swords (medieval) and claymores (as in two handers)


What, appart from them being annachronistic and out of period :D

My quote of stocks was for neck stocks, but on gun stocks you can read a lot.

Fish tail dog locks are out of period. There are no refferences to them in the period except the ones that Fraser's (Lace Wars) used to justify their guns. If you look at other contempory descriptions you will find that the one from Edinburgh is more than likely reffering to the antique style of gun similar to Mike Netten's, as that is given the same description from arround 3 other different contempry sources.

Later doglocks we know were in use in the AWI let alone the '45, but on the whole we also know that they were issued with guns.

And we also know that they were issued "stands of arms" which means they would also have the appropriate leatherwork to go with the gun they carry - be it French or British - civilian guns, whatever the favoured method of loading was.


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Postby Tod » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:23 pm

[quote="Andy R"][quote="Tod"]


What, appart from them being annachronistic and out of period :D

My quote of stocks was for neck stocks, but on gun stocks you can read a lot.

quote]
I knew you meant neck stocks :roll:
Nettens gun, that would be small then. I think you mean more like June's loverly loverly gun.
As for out of period you mean old fashioned :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



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Postby Andy R » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:40 pm

Tod wrote:
Andy R wrote:

What, appart from them being annachronistic and out of period :D

My quote of stocks was for neck stocks, but on gun stocks you can read a lot.


I knew you meant neck stocks :roll:
Nettens gun, that would be small then. I think you mean more like June's loverly loverly gun.
As for out of period you mean old fashioned :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Actually, to quote Mike....

my own fowling piece is based on the one pictured in the "Swords and the Sorrows" book, albeit mine is a cut down version for a wee boy like me!


June is totally fab, and should be used to blugeon people who complain that they can't have a full size gun because they are too week. :evil:

Old fashioned - if we ruled out old fashioned that would be you for the high jump straight away :wink:

Out of period as in what is it doing in my army.

After all, we know that the Jacobites received enough arms to not only replace all the civilian guns, but to also replace the British arms captured at pots'n'pans.

You don't get any mention of fishtail guns in the late c17th let alone the c18th.

Next you'll be making excuses for mud eating hand gonnes :wink:


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Postby Tod » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:20 pm

I can see this turning into the Tod and Andy Show, I'd be the funny one, you'd be the one who went on to present Family Fortunes and adverts on late night TV.

Lets try to get back on thread (youngsters no concentration skills).

I've been holding this one back......................sheep skin or rabbit skin sleeveless jerkins.



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Postby Neil Johnston » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:44 pm

Bright blue NATO/UN style berets
and
Car Rugs
and
"Moccassin" slippers with sheepskin inside them
and
ankle length kilts with Timberlands
and
Tea cosy like crocheted bonnets like the one on The Highland Clans TV programme last night..........Ah the joys of BBC2 Scotland!!!

Well I feel a lot better after that wee rant :D

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Postby Foxe » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:59 pm

Andy R wrote:You don't get any mention of fishtail guns in the late c17th let alone the c18th.


Now, granted that Scottish Jacobites are not something I've researched in any great detail, but carrying over my experience of researching other things I have to question this.

Just how many detailed descriptions of guns in the Jacobite armies are there, as opposed to the ones that just say "muskets"?

Also, see below.

Next you'll be making excuses for mud eating hand gonnes :wink:


A bit early perhaps, but do you mean hand gonnes like the two recovered from the 1707 wrecks on the Scillies? :P


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Postby Neibelungen » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:55 pm

A bit early perhaps, but do you mean hand gonnes like the two recovered from the 1707 wrecks on the Scillies?


Those would be swivel guns. The look the same as a medieval hand gun, but were designed for deck clearing and small boats below the tilt of deck cannon.

You find them on a lot of 18th C ships.



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Postby Henrik Bjoern Boegh » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:12 pm

Chinese or Indian made basket hilts with glossy cromed over-sized baskets on them.

Baldrics with a lot of shiny rings and studs. Victorian baldric fittings.

"Jacobean"-styled modern kilt jackets.

Tod I found this picture of the 8th Duke of Atholl and Lord George Stewart Murrray posing as Highland gentlemen of the '45 at the Devonshire House Ball 1897. I thought you'd love to see how highlanders should look according to the Victorians. No wonder why the portrait of Glenbucket looks the way it does.

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Postby the_weaker_vessel » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:43 pm

Andy R wrote:Anular (Penanular??) brooches.
Scraps of tartan wrapped arround the leg instead of hose.

So can you clarify this by (I think) Edward Burt 1754:

If they [the ordinary girls] wear stockings, which is very rare, they lay them in plaits one above the other from the ankle up to the calf, to make their legs appear, as near as they can, in the form of a cylinder; but I think I have seen something like this among the poor German refugee women and the Morrish men in London.

I guessed strips of cloth, not nessesarily tartan, but like WWI putties or what?

I need this for ECW not LW, but suspect as Tod has said that there won't be much difference for highland dress.


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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:45 am

the_weaker_vessel wrote:
Andy R wrote:Anular (Penanular??) brooches.
Scraps of tartan wrapped arround the leg instead of hose.

So can you clarify this by (I think) Edward Burt 1754:

If they [the ordinary girls] wear stockings, which is very rare, they lay them in plaits one above the other from the ankle up to the calf, to make their legs appear, as near as they can, in the form of a cylinder; but I think I have seen something like this among the poor German refugee women and the Morrish men in London.

I guessed strips of cloth, not nessesarily tartan, but like WWI putties or what?

I need this for ECW not LW, but suspect as Tod has said that there won't be much difference for highland dress.



Morninig...

By this I mean "lazy" "hose", (two sepperate infringements)

Usually seen in re-enactment circles as a (rough) rectangle of tartan cloth wrapped arround the leg and usually held in place by Tod pet hate of criss-crossed leather thonging. Usually the cloth isn't even on the bias either.


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:03 am

Foxe wrote:
Andy R wrote:You don't get any mention of fishtail guns in the late c17th let alone the c18th.


Now, granted that Scottish Jacobites are not something I've researched in any great detail, but carrying over my experience of researching other things I have to question this.

Just how many detailed descriptions of guns in the Jacobite armies are there, as opposed to the ones that just say "muskets"?

Also, see below.

Next you'll be making excuses for mud eating hand gonnes :wink:


A bit early perhaps, but do you mean hand gonnes like the two recovered from the 1707 wrecks on the Scillies? :P


Ah-ha...! :D

Of issued guns there is quite a bit. After Pots'n'pans Jacobites were issued captured British stands of arms, and after the French succesfully landed troops and arms they were issued with French M1717 and M1728 muskets resplendent with out of date gargousiers (on belts) and gibearns (with bayonet frog) and also Spanish M1728 muskets as well. They are recorded as having enough that they could replace the captured guns from Prestonpans.

On civilian guns, the description (verbal) are few, and these are only for the out of the ordinary, and only mentioned twice. And as mentioned above, after finding some period refferences I think they have been misquoted to support re-enacterisms. The lack of other descriptions would support the notion that they were not out of the ordinary (I like to think)


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:06 am

Tod wrote:I can see this turning into the Tod and Andy Show, I'd be the funny one


Who ends up with a tango sun tan and presents a cable TV shopping channel. Yup, that's you all over :lol:

Tod wrote:I've been holding this one back......................sheep skin or rabbit skin sleeveless jerkins.


Oh for sure, and you know people have had fallings out with me in the past over my inability to see the period charm in this wonderful little garment :cry:


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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:10 am

Actually, as c18th guns are availible these days, is there any excuse not to carry one?

When Lacewars started you could either have India Pattern Bess, a 2nd Land Pattern bess, or a Charliaville Year 9 and that was your lot unless your imported one from the states.

But now you can get French 1696, 1717 and 1728 muskets, and a wide variety of 1st Land Pattern bess's.

All for very reasonible prices.

So is there an excuse?


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Postby Tod » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:42 am

Yes and no. In my case I'm like you, lots of guns and I'm just getting a :D bigger cabinet



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Postby m300572 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:45 am

No wonder why the portrait of Glenbucket looks the way it does.


I think there is a 'Penicuik sketch' of Gordon of Glenbucket which shows him as a badly tied sack of sh!te sitting on a broken down old nag!

Annual/penannular - pennanulars are the ones with the gap - common in the early middle ages, sometimes in spectacular silver and gilt, annulars are solid rings - I have seen a pic of a brass 17th C annular from the highlands..


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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:52 am

m300572 wrote:
No wonder why the portrait of Glenbucket looks the way it does.


I think there is a 'Penicuik sketch' of Gordon of Glenbucket which shows him as a badly tied sack of sh!te sitting on a broken down old nag!

Annual/penannular - pennanulars are the ones with the gap - common in the early middle ages, sometimes in spectacular silver and gilt, annulars are solid rings - I have seen a pic of a brass 17th C annular from the highlands..


Thanks for that - I get very confused with the differences :D

Period texts (C17th and C18th) reffer to buttons, and bodkins of bone or wood.

Never seen a period annular, so glad for the input.

I remember the over large annulars that used to be used in the Ranoch of old (before their knees went)


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Postby Tod » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:41 am

About a million years ago when I was running the Atholl Brigade (thanks for that Andy I've never forgiven you and I still have nightmares - ask Steve T) I was told that the broaches at Blair Castle were 18th century male ones.
Since then and before I had never seen any male broaches from either the 17th or 18th century. My conclusion was that the ones at Blair are in fact female ones, and 18th century going by the design.
Corp. Paul makes some really nice bodkins, I can highly recommend them.

Next not to wear. Pheasent feathers in bonnets, with or with out clan badges.



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Postby Neil Johnston » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:42 am

"Corp. Paul makes some really nice bodkins, I can highly recommend them."
Mmmm sounds interesting do you have an email contact for him by any chance???

Mr Robertson stop tempting me with tales of glamorous sexy French muskets you know Lothian and Borders will only allow me to hold the one!!!

My next thing not to wear would be

Chrome buckled kilt belts


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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:44 am

Tod wrote:About a million years ago when I was running the Atholl Brigade (thanks for that Andy I've never forgiven you and I still have nightmares - ask Steve T)


I don't know what the fuss is, it was fine when I left it........... :wink:


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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:46 am

Neil Johnston wrote:Mr Robertson stop tempting me with tales of glamorous sexy French muskets you know Lothian and Borders will only allow me to hold the one!!!


What about Mrs Johnston, how many is she allowed to hold? (and how many does she have......)

and they are so very, very gracefull
Image

Next not to wear, skians in hose.


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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