Details for short 'doublet' found on bog body please

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the_weaker_vessel
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Details for short 'doublet' found on bog body please

Postby the_weaker_vessel » Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:59 pm

I've been speaking to Tod, who refered to a short doublet style jacket of this period suitable to be worn with Plaid or Trews. It had no tabs or tassets but Tod talked about a waistband on the lower edge of the jacket (similar to a WWII Eisenhower jacket).

I thought this might be it: http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata ... 72_182.pdf

But it does not sound like the same thing. Can anyone help please

thanks

Lynn


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Postby Mark P. » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:51 pm

I'm afraid it doesn't sound like any garment I've seen or heard of before.

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Postby Henrik Bjoern Boegh » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:36 pm

Would that be early or mid 18th century? Sounds like a strange jacket...
I hope Tod can enlighten us a wee bit.

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Postby Tod » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:15 pm

Mark, I was talking about the bog body with the doublet on. Andy R will know what I'm on about and maybe one of you still has the link to the a archaeology report. For Andy's ref, it's the one that Jules made for Mickey the Inch, the one with the cut waistband.
TWV and I were talking about the differences between the English doublets and the ones worn in the Highlands (17th century) and how the English ones tabs are a pain the back (literally). My one which I b****y hate feels all wrong with a plaid and some how looks wrong (in a way I can't define) with trews.
TWV you can be assured Andy will have a view on this. :wink:



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Postby Andy R » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:23 am

Tod wrote:TWV you can be assured Andy will have a view on this. :wink:


Yes

In a meeting, back later


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die

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Re: Details for short 'doublet' found on bog body please

Postby Andy R » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:06 am

the_weaker_vessel wrote:I've been speaking to Tod, who refered to a short doublet style jacket of this period suitable to be worn with Plaid or Trews. It had no tabs or tassets but Tod talked about a waistband on the lower edge of the jacket (similar to a WWII Eisenhower jacket).

I thought this might be it: http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata ... 72_182.pdf

But it does not sound like the same thing. Can anyone help please

thanks

Lynn


Hi Lynn,

terminally different.

The doublet Tod referred to is early to mid c17th, and of the "Irish" persuasion. It is similar to a standard c17th doublet, but comes down as far as your belly button, or slightly above. Mike Nettin from Gordon's coy has papers drawn up from the original and is the best person to talk on the sibject (as is my misses)

Also take a look and the Dungiven bog finds (what some of the O'Cahan's doublets are based on). http://www.paulmeekins.co.uk/patterns/reconstructinghistory/RH305.htm


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Postby the_weaker_vessel » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:38 pm

Sorry it's taken me a while to get back online. Where has the week gone!

I see the pattern picture, and have found thid from the name

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ir ... given.html

It looks interesting, much less waste of material than an English Doublet as it's cut almost square, half way between a doublet and soldiers coat. As Tod says it will a stop all the drafts, and even with wet wool trews would keep the wearer warm.

Thanks Andy, I'll try and find someone with a pattern, otherwise I'll make my own. Also thanks for everyone elses comments, it's not quite the Eisenhower Jacket I thought, a bit lower in the waist but it looks better thanI thought it would be.

Another winter project to add to my list :roll:

Lynn


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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:46 pm

Oh there is a higher one as well..!

If you look at the late c16th Irish "doublets" in the same range, the doublet that you described is an evolution of that one.

Mike Netten just sent me through some pictures from Urquhart (unfortunately 2 of the 4 were ruined by some beardy Milton Keyney) which would have shown just the doublet had he only been considerate enough to wear it.


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Postby Andy R » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:54 pm

Looking at the site, this comment made me laugh. On trews....

The great amount of patching on the rump indicates that the wearer may have been a horseman.


Or, his backside got bigger (not that it happened to me of course, the patching in my trews was caused by the horses even though I only rode in them once. The horses yes, not the pies....... ) :oops:


Young men have often been ruined through owning horses, or through backing them, but never through riding them: unless of course they break their necks, which, taken at a gallop, is a very good death to die



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Postby Henrik Bjoern Boegh » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:00 pm

Yeah, blame it on the poor horse... I thought you cared enough about your horses not to blame them for your own physique! :lol:

Speaking of interesting seams on trews; the trews in the National Museum of Scotland are interestingly constructed using four different tartan-fabrics. Here's a picture of them: Image

I'm curious, Andy, when you and your wife made your trews what kind of buttoning on the front did you make and how did you make them.
And what about Tod's trews?! What kind of front do they have?
Is there any proper pattern available for proper 1740s trews?

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Postby the_weaker_vessel » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:52 pm

Can you say 'Shortbread tin' :cry:

The museum in Dumfries has a tartan exhibition on at the moment, I'm going to drop in on them next week on my way to Glasgow. I might take a trip to the museum in Edinburgh but I believe all the clothes are packed up at the moment as they are moving early next year.

Yes please, a pattern for trews would be great, or a sketch and I'll make my own pattern. What sort of timescale / area does the Dungiven trews cover?

Just found this on the same site

Image

Can anyone shed light on what it is.


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Postby Henrik Bjoern Boegh » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:23 pm

Image

I don't remember if I saw that one what I was in the National Museum of Scotland. The problem is that the day I visited the NMoS I didn't have a camera, and I was fatigued because of my footinjury and from limping about on Lauder Common... And to be honest, finding one's way in the NMoS is a bit challenging...

Perhaps Neil Johnston kens!

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Postby Neil Johnston » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:49 pm

Nope sorry don't know
I would guess from the picture behind and the cut/style etc it is probably late 18th/early 19thC and to be worn with breeches. There are a few paintings of dances/shooting groups etc in Atholl from this time which show very short jackets with breeches.... although that's not to say it wasn't originally intended for a plaid.
I have read that Scots were always been known for liking short clothes and jackets, even in the Lowlands, with no plaid wearing history.........probably something to do with our warm sunny climate :shock:

I will look next time I'm in and try and find it see what it says on the case.
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Postby the_weaker_vessel » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:14 pm

I've just had this back from the curator:

Short-waisted doublet of wool, light brown check in ginger-brown, found in 1975 on the skeleton of a young man aged about seventeen in a peat bank at Clayton Hill, Keiss, Caithness, c. 1650 – 1660

...

All of the above items are currently displayed in the Museum of Scotland, Chambers Street Edinburgh, should you wish to examine them in detail.


Not sure if we're allowed to take photos, but hopefully I'll see it next week


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Postby Neil Johnston » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:50 pm

Brilliant........shows what I know!!!!!!!! :lol:
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Postby Henrik Bjoern Boegh » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:11 pm

I thought it might have been a 17th century jacket, and it looks like it might go well with a plaid.

Lynn, do you have any idea if the body had any other garments than the jacket?

Cheers,
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Postby Henrik Bjoern Boegh » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:19 pm

Neil Johnston wrote:I have read that Scots were always been known for liking short clothes and jackets, even in the Lowlands, with no plaid wearing history.........probably something to do with our warm sunny climate :shock:


Neil,
The same applies for Norway (at least when one look at traditional garments and our national costumes)! I think one of the reasons why they preferred short jackets rather than long is that they are far more practical for hard labour than longer coats.

Cheers,
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Postby the_weaker_vessel » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:54 pm

Henrik Bjoern Boegh wrote:I thought it might have been a 17th century jacket, and it looks like it might go well with a plaid.

Lynn, do you have any idea if the body had any other garments than the jacket?

Cheers,
Henrik


Nothing else is mentioned on the blurb, although there is a photo of a 'suit' which looks like a shirt and skirt (can't call it anothing else from the photo) in beige wool, from 16/17th C. Unfortunatly is was not on display when I visited NMoS today.

Also found this place a nightmare to navigate, gave up in the end and asked for help - the guides were almost as lost!! Also had small child in tow who only wanted to play with the kids stuff and watch the machine models, so I didn't get as much time as I wanted :(

The jacket above is tiny, and as Neil says looks later than we need. Fitted sleeves, seperate eppulette (only one on the jacket) and also fitted to the waist - I could not tell if there was a side seam or not, even though I left my nose print on the glass.

The material is beautiful, for a bog body it looks almost new, shades of brown but I guess stained by the peat? Anyway, too late for me so I'll stick with the Dungiven jacket for now - once I've finished my half finished bodice and made Ross (left) some warm ECW stuff for Nantwich in January :roll:


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Postby Tod » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:13 am

The brown jacket in the picture looks the same as Mike Nettens (could some one mail him this web address, I've told him it about 5 millions times).
Mike has the research notes from the bog body, he told me this on Monday. I think there is another one some where with two shirts, a murder victim in the Isles.



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Postby Neil Johnston » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:21 am

After a bit more hunting around I still think the doublet could just as likely to be from a (slightly) later period.
I have my grandfather's kilt jacket which he wore to his wedding in 1938 i.e. pre the current black barathea Prince Charlie/Argyll jacket era.
It was made in Oban from tweed cloth from his home on the Isle of Skye and apart from the lapels the general cut and style and particularly the length are very similar to the jacket pictured.

I have seen a pattern from Reconstructing History which is labelled as a late 16thC style which looks pretty short to go with a plaid and similar to some of those shown on the Stettin print esp. "the musketeer"

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/in ... 1&p=47&r=Y

I totally agree about the museum by the way. I have spent hours in there and not seen what I want......many things are out of place or grouped strangely. Many of the bog clothes or reconstructions mentioned by others are there for instance in a case away round the back near town history or something like that. I'm afraid form was considered more important than function!!!

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Postby Scottish Lady » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:11 pm

The jacket with the single epaulette was on display at the Marischal museum in Aberdeen some time ago. From what I can remember of the blurb that was with it then, the original colour was thought to have been a cream background with pink and green patterning. It would also appear that there had only ever been a single epaulette, there were no signs of damage. It was thought that it had been left with the body because it was of such a distintive colour and design that no-one else would have been able to use it without it being recognised, ( I believe the young man was thought to have been murdered).


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Postby the_weaker_vessel » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:40 pm

Ah - ha. The colours on the jacket are lovely today, and it looks so clean. I guess pink is not everyones taste, also would cream with pink and green all be 'woman's' colours? ie pale colours not dark enough for camoflague. Possibly for a boy and not yet a man, anyway as you said very distictive.

I could not see any stitching marks on the right shoulder either, and it was interesting to see that the eppalette was a separate piece of material and not the same as the Dungiven design.

Still would be interested to see the back of the jacket, to see where the seam is.


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Postby Scottish Lady » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:48 pm

If you look closely at the epaulette you can see the pink and green colours, I assume the brown colouring comes from the long exposure to peat. Maybe it was a 'Sunday' jacket, in which case there would be no need for camouflage. Real ladies probably wouldn't have gone for pink, that was considered to be a colour more suited to the 'ladies of the night'!


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Postby Tod » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:51 pm

Henrik Bjoern Boegh wrote:Image



Any one else notice how much that looks like a 15th century doublet.
I wonder what the backs like?



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Postby the_weaker_vessel » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:51 am

I'll ask the Cutator again, she is getting fed up of me by now I think. I would think by the look of the waist and the fitted sleeves etc that there was a seam somewhere, but I would not want to assume.


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Postby Andy R » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:54 am

Yeah.

The Dungiven doublet has a four panel body if memory serves, where as I have a "hunch" that this one has a three panel body.


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Postby the_weaker_vessel » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:47 pm

Andy R wrote:Yeah.

The Dungiven doublet has a four panel body if memory serves, where as I have a "hunch" that this one has a three panel body.


The Dungivan Jacket has only one panel from the web sites I've seen, and I'm itching to make one. I'm goint to use one of my many woollen blankets, and make it really heavy and warm. The web site below states "Coat-weight 2/1 twill", I'm not sure if the blankets were ever twill, but they are so old and matted and don't think anyone would know - especially once I dye them.

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ir ... given.html


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