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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:14 am
by Grymm
The Gentleman in question is Robert Grant of Lurg (1678-1771, 1777 in a couple of refs!) painted 1769. Retired from the Highland Company in 1739 because of his age, favoured the styles of his yoof according to Telfer- Dunbar.

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:44 am
by Andy R
Tod wrote:Henrik, I've seen that picture before, when ( :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ) I get time I'll see if I can put a name to it.
I'm sure it's Father Christmas.

I'm in Finland at the moment, so I'll ask arround.

As an aside, is that a contempory painting, as the detail looks a bit off???

EDIT
B'ahh...
Grymm wrote:The Gentleman in question is Robert Grant of Lurg (1678-1771, 1777 in a couple of refs!) painted 1769. Retired from the Highland Company in 1739 because of his age, favoured the styles of his yoof according to Telfer- Dunbar.
That'll teach me not to turn the page....

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:40 am
by Andysmith
I think that's quite enough of beards...on 'Autumnwatch' (BBC TV) Bill Oddie keeps banging on about beavers to his comely blonde assistante...what a mucky-minded ornithologist and beaver-stalking man he is!

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:28 pm
by Henrik Bjoern Boegh
Thank you! Lurg sounds like quite a character! And he looks a lot more dangerous than your average 91 year old. :roll:

I think the cut of his clothes, his baldric and pistol look as if they are in style of the 1730s-1740s. The only thing that really stands out as something of a later date is his bonnet. Notice that he's got a plant badge on the left side of it.

Has anyone got or seen a the original or a coloured version of it? I'm curious about the colours of his tartan clothes.

He does look like a Highland version of Father Christmas. Coming down during the Christmas holiday to snatch your cattle. Ho-Ho-Ho!

Cheers,
Henrik

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:40 am
by Grymm
Go to http://nms.scran.ac.uk/ and search for Robert Grant, its a mostly green sett, and he has a RED cockade in his bonnet! On a sad costume minutia note I did notice that his shirt sleeves were closed with link buttons.

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:24 am
by Neil Johnston
Red cockade or red saltire, the mark of a Highland supporter of the House of Hanover in 1745 and seen in earlier Grant portraits too..... not really sure where that came from?.. stands out against the blue bonnet better than black??
I see the picture is attributed to Richard Waitt c 1769 who obviously had a Grant fixation.
I assume there were two Richard Waitts? As all the earlier well known Grant portraits, which are 50 years pre this one, are attributed to Richard Waitt also and the Portrait Gallery lists him as having died 37 years before this painting was done in 1732 :shock:
Cheers
Neil

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:46 am
by m300572
I see the picture is attributed to Richard Waitt c 1769 who obviously had a Grant fixation.
More likely the Laird of Grant employed him to portray his family and household staff.

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:21 pm
by Neil Johnston
Hi Pete,
Employed even when he was deed??
Now that is taking the family retainer bit too far!!!! :P

Hope Georgie is doing okay?
Cheers
Neil

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:51 pm
by m300572
I was thinking of the earlier one - the later one would have been known as Scrotum (the Wrinkled Family Retainer) rather than Waitt! :lol:

G is fine - bit fed up with the wait, only another 4 weeks to go (hence not doing Derby - I've delivered one baby when it was a fast labour (20 minutes) - repeating the experience by the cathedral wouldn't be too clever!)

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:18 am
by Mark P.
Well its taken nearly 10 months but I found one.
Twenty pounds reward
Run away from... Alexandria, Fairfax County Virginia, a convict servant man, named John Murphy, born in Ireland, about 28 Years of Age, by trade a joiner, a low set fellow, about 5 feet 4 inches high, struts in his walk, has a pale complexion, large black beard and eyebrows, wide mouth, and pleasant countenance, sings extraordinarily well, having followed it in playhouses in London, talks proper English, and that in a polite manner... It is imagined he has forged a pass and likely will deny his name, trade and place of nativity.
NB All Masters of Vessels are forbid to take him off at their Peril. (August 1760)
So anyone with a beard can now happily pass themselves off as a convict servant. Of course once he escaped he probably shaved it off.

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:55 pm
by Henrik Bjoern Boegh
Here's a couple of pictures of what colours Grant of Lurg's clothes really are!
They appear to be green, blue (both of which are quite light) with a red-brown background. It's not easy to make out, but it looks as if his plaid is of a different, darker tartan, but with quite similar colours.
Image
Image
His pistol appears to be heavily engraved, at least on the handle.
And notice that he's wearing both a red cockade and a plant in his bonnet!

Cheers,
Henrik[/img]

Re: Beards in the 18th century

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:11 am
by Le Loup
Tod wrote:For the last 10 years at least I've heard numerous debates about facial hair in the 18th century, in particular around the middle of the century, and in Scotland.

My conclusion to date.
I can find only four pictures of any Scots with facial hair – I might be able to find more if I trawled the book collection but I think any others would be similar). All three are officers or gentlemen who have either a full beard (1 case) and a big moustache (3 cases).
The first case is Glenbucket and the picture was doctored in the 19th century but how I don't know, but I don't think the beard was added. However he is painted as an old man.
The other three are a piper and two gentlemen. These three all wear their moustaches in the style of the Europeans at the time, long and curled up at the ends. Military pictures from around 1740 show the soldiers and officers with this style of moustache, in fact the painting in Hanover Museum shows the whole of the Hanoverian Army and it looks like the British Army with 'taches drawn on. From that I have concluded that Brits abroad may have adopted the style of the Europeans.
There are very few pictures of the normal people of Scotland, and in particular the Highlands. Even in Burt’s letters from the north he shows clean shaved Highlanders and he was being as descriptive as possible. The Jacobite Army, although often described as being ragged and scruffy are not noted for having beards badgers could live in.
By the time of the Napoleonic wars the Highland Regts. had a rather “stand out from the crowd” image. The uniforms and the style of the soldiers made them an ideal candidate for painters. How many times have you seen pictures of the Highland Regts. fighting in the 19th century? The big bristling beards and the hard eyes must have put fear in their enemies. Add that image to the re-invented Highland garb and you get your stereo typical Highlander of legend.
People of the past were not stupid and I strongly believe in a logical approach to re-enactment. Given that it is freezing cold in the Highlands in winter and that beards (if you are used to them!) offer a certain amount of protection it seems likely that your average Highlander would not have shaved on a regular weekly basis, but as there is no evidence for the majority being beardy laddies it is improbable that beards were common. The Jacobite Army certainly did not have the opportunity on a regular basis to get the razor out, so in my opinion the soldiers and officers would have had serious stubble, even the incident at Culloden painting shows dark shadows as do many pictures of British soldiers (the painting is thought to have been painted later).
Personally I go for the long moustache in the European style and heavy stubble (beard trimmers are a wonderful thing), but then I am trying to portray an officer in the field.
Lowland Scots, and the rest of GB were certainly clean shaven in the vast majority. It often makes me laugh when you see some one of importance with a full beard in an 18th century drama. If you’re going to put on frock coat and tricorn take the beard off, it will grow back! The only reasonable explanation for any facial hair it that you are European or have just returned from abroad, other that it’s the clean shaved look – or researching some sort of facial hair that suits your character.
I am not so sure it is as clear cut as that.
I am 61 years of age, and it is now 1740. That means I was born in 1680, and by 1700 I was 20 years of age and travelling to the New World. I have a beard, as did my father and uncles. I was born in a small country seaside town in West Sussex. I am now a woodsman/land owner in the New World.
Also some of my belongings/equipment dates to the 17th century, and my clothing style is not new. I still wear the long weskit, as I am set in my ways and prefdere this style for practicality, warmth, and protection.
Depending on your age, it is not reasonable to expect that everything you own and wear should date to the period you re-enact/interpret.
Regards, Le Loup.

Re: Beards in the 18th century

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:45 am
by Andy R
Le Loup wrote: I am not so sure it is as clear cut as that.
I am 61 years of age, and it is now 1740. That means I was born in 1680, and by 1700 I was 20 years of age and travelling to the New World. I have a beard, as did my father and uncles. I was born in a small country seaside town in West Sussex. I am now a woodsman/land owner in the New World.
Also some of my belongings/equipment dates to the 17th century, and my clothing style is not new. I still wear the long weskit, as I am set in my ways and prefdere this style for practicality, warmth, and protection.
Depending on your age, it is not reasonable to expect that everything you own and wear should date to the period you re-enact/interpret.
Regards, Le Loup.
With facial hair, big beards etc died out pre restoration, so if you were born in 1680 you would still have had 20 years of clean shaven fashion.

Clothing is a bug bear - the contempory accounts talk of a people who take more pride in what they look like than anything else. Certainly in the 2nd quarter of the 17th century you get accounts of people who are behind the times in the fashion stakes, but you are not talking more than 10 years on average. You also look at the cloth available and how hard wearing it was/wasn't .

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:15 pm
by Kingofderby
The Americans...British people really, so I'm presuming they would not bother with facial hair either. And from what I see of portraits, that seems about right.

Only it would be...convenient...if some of them followed the French ways, just to annoy the Brits, as it would mean I could keep my moustache. I did not intend to have one, but I kept forgetting to shave that part of my face, and so it grew. Once I found that a soldier in the French army (like what I portray) would wear one, I decided to keep it.

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:41 pm
by Andy R
Kingofderby wrote:The Americans...British people really, so I'm presuming they would not bother with facial hair either. And from what I see of portraits, that seems about right.

Only it would be...convenient...if some of them followed the French ways, just to annoy the Brits, as it would mean I could keep my moustache. I did not intend to have one, but I kept forgetting to shave that part of my face, and so it grew. Once I found that a soldier in the French army (like what I portray) would wear one, I decided to keep it.
In the french army it was restricted to Grenadier companies. It was the mark of the Grenadier in some respects when some uniform issues made no diferentiations between fusileer and grendaier companies.

Your "German" soldiers on the other hand wore 'taches as part of their uniform..!! (looking at Prussian, Hessian and Hanovarian troops)

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:59 am
by Kingofderby
Andy R wrote:
Kingofderby wrote:Once I found that a soldier in the French army (like what I portray) would wear one, I decided to keep it.
In the french army it was restricted to Grenadier companies. It was the mark of the Grenadier in some respects when some uniform issues made no diferentiations between fusileer and grendaier companies.
Where is that shown?

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:00 pm
by Andy R
just about every contemporary account going.

I think Chartrand's Osprey book shows this on his pictures as well.

It also followed in mounted usints where the Hussars tended to have taches, but regular units did not.

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:50 pm
by Kingofderby
:(

I'm quite torn now. Obviously, if a French fusilier of the 1740s cannot wear a moustache, then I should get rid.

But then, so many in the groups I'm in have full beard, even some of the government troops have incorrect facial hair. It's a bit narking to know that I'm getting rid of a moustache that I've gotten quite accustomed to, when I know that those with much more facial hair are not.

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:53 pm
by Andy R
I seriously would not worry about it - it's a compromise.

And to be honest, from the pictures your 'tache looks good anyway and in keeping with the image.

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:50 pm
by Grymm
I have a slightly larger version of this image which shows at least 3 bearded men, all greyhaired but 3! Still a low percentage and mostly old codgers but they are out there.
Image
Mayday by Nollekens circa 1740.

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:19 pm
by Mark P.
Grymm wrote:at least 3 bearded men, all greyhaired and mostly old codgers but they are out there.
There has got to be an idea for a new re-enactment group in there somewhere!

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:45 am
by wurzul
Chelsea Pensioners?

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:43 am
by Kingofderby
Mark P. wrote:
Grymm wrote:at least 3 bearded men, all greyhaired and mostly old codgers but they are out there.
There has got to be an idea for a new re-enactment group in there somewhere!
Umm...don't we already have that?