Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

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Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Dixie » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:06 pm

With the price of a deactivated SMLE rising all the time (average price £548 for a decent one), some people are looking at a Denix replica. At a price of £145, one can understand why.
I have not seen any to make a comparison. Who has and what do they think?
There would appear to be a slight resistance amongst some re-enactors towards not having an original, but we are, on the whole, re-enactors not collectors.
Thoughts and opinions please.
Regards,
Andrew


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby John Waller » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:52 pm

Dixie wrote:With the price of a deactivated SMLE rising all the time (average price £548 for a decent one), some people are looking at a Denix replica. At a price of £145, one can understand why.
I have not seen any to make a comparison. Who has and what do they think?
There would appear to be a slight resistance amongst some re-enactors towards not having an original, but we are, on the whole, re-enactors not collectors.
Thoughts and opinions please.
Regards,
Andrew


Have a look at :-

http://www.wwiireenacting.co.uk/forum/v ... ilit=denix

You sure about your prices? I was at an arms fair at Bisley a couple of weeks ago and there were live SMLEs there for less.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby acecat999 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:27 pm

denix


always


looks




sh**



.


honestly


and as john said your prices are way out - you can find em for far far less


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby spydde » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:47 pm

Depends on what you want it for?
honestly the Denix looks the part and cocks and dry fires, but cheaply made so not up to lots of wear and tear.

regarding deacs, I got an Indian smle for £285 quite recently just shopped around, there are a lot of dealers have them in from time to time, just have to keep shopping and see what they are asking for them

there are a lot out there, but they are going up in price slowly. I got mine from MJL (listed below)
I know the first point of contact was via the list on, and the following two sites have a constant though flow of SMLE's, the 1960's Ishapore SMLE is similar to the WW1 version
http://www.milweb.net/classifieds.php?type=16
http://www.dandbmilitaria.com/WW1-c-25/
http://www.mjlmilitaria.com/

It's just a case of patience


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby acecat999 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:08 pm

spydde wrote: the 1960's Ishapore SMLE is similar to the WW1 version


no it isn't

one is .303, the other 7.62 and the magazine is a completely different shape because of that.
it certainly wouldn't have a magazine cut off either
lastly the cocking piece changes shape from a round to a slab.


all the ww2 reenactors I know who have moved to start doing ww1 have been swapping their post 1918 SMLEs for early dated ones - people are looking at dates.
turn up with a 2A or a 2A1 and you WILL be laughed at

to the OP - would you take his word that a denix looks good if he can't tell the difference?


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Dixie » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:19 pm

I really think it depends where you get the deact. If you are luck enough to have a show near you then you will get a good deal. The price was an average from looking at dealers and private traders on the internet, around 35 rifles.
Even looking at the prices from a year ago they have gone up.
I have my own live MkI**, which has turned out to be too good to use for re-enactment so a MkIII is on the way!
Looking to give good advice to the rest of the group.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby spydde » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:04 pm

think a few of the comments on here might prove a point,
it depends on what you want it for.

Again, everyone is an expert, and my .303 calibre smle :0) looks nothing like a 7.62, but now I am informed it is,I will try wedging one of these into the magazine instead of the dummy .303s that are in there. the magazine cut off as commented upon is a very interesting point this was removed on the Mk3 enfield which was introduced in 1915. so if you are doing 1914 it is an optional extra, and they were removed for a reason. but if you really want one on your rifle they cost £15 and can be screwed on.

You are welcome to laugh at my equipment, it's tiny but beautifully proportioned, but expect a response, and I would suggest a little more humility when swapping periods. The trouble is one person starts a rumour and everyone else falls into line hence it becomes a fact.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby acecat999 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:16 pm

thats a MK III* in 1915.

not a mk 3 , 3 had the cut off.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby spydde » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:51 pm

No1 mkIII oopsy......

There are quite huge differences between the 7.62 and the .303 as well (other that the calibre) and when put together they look completely different.
The 7.62 was produced initially in England in the early 60's as a new build based on the no 4 using all new components. After the 62 war between India and China the Indians thought the upgrade would be a good idea and so made their own version 2A/2A1, with a bulky square magazine carrying 12 rounds, it also had a tendency to misfire the last two rounds.

There were a lot of no 1 mkIII's made in India, until 1962 these are sold as .303 smle's by the dealers and come out a lot cheaper than originals with only minor, easily changed, differences, these are the ones I was talking about.

The cut off plate was introduced to reduce the rate of fire, and was highly unpopular amongst the military, and was removed for economic purposes to lower production costs in the MkIII. not to mention that where possible they were' lost in combat' and not replaced, the evidence for this occuring was that in initial contacts between German and English units the Germans thought they were facing machine guns not rifles.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Miss Costello » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:14 pm

Personally, I think the price is only going to go up before 2014. However, I'd also consider that buying a Denix is a bit like buying a brand new car and in my (humble) opinion they will lose their price very quickly.

I'm a collector, but also a living history bod and if you are prepared to search on the forums they're coming up for sale cheaper (sadly lots of people needing to sell up) and it's an investment.

As someone hiring groups for 2014 through my job, we're looking for quality.

Kate



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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby spydde » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:25 pm

Which of course is the bottom line. isn't it?

which is more to the point of the original question..:0)


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby acecat999 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:27 pm

they didn't change the designation to NO1 MKIII etc till 1926 though so if you are doing WW1 it wouldn't just be a MKIII or MK III*

and anything that has been through India will have the "ISHAPORE SCREW" - its details like that.


I have a friend who has a denix and they've changed the fore end for a real one and then taken it apart and seriously glued it all to together to stop the light between the top and bottom stocks. Also fitted proper Enfield Swing Swivels (all of them) After re-waxing the wood (and added lead weights inside the hollowed out stock) its the only denix lee enfield which almost passes as a real one. still needs a real sight

can still spot it at 10 yards though , avoid them unless its the only thing you can afford as the deact will keep its value and not break. you wanted an honest opinion.





anyway ww1 issues normally best bright up on ww1 forum where you can read to your hearts content about blanco shades. :lol:


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby spydde » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:52 pm

I must admit there is a general ropiness to the rifle, however, as shown already, there are lots of original parts around, so for the saving made, if you want to 'upgrade' you should still end up ahead. reality being anyway - smle's didn't have a long ridge cut down the barrel :0) a crime in itself akin to putting a dress on the Venus de Milo.

At least the questions are being asked though, this is how we end up with a compromise, and not a huge bill


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Sasha » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:40 pm

There's a 1918 example on Milweb right now for £425 plus shipping. Or have a look round Gunstar - always loads on there.

You can get airsoft No.4s and I did see some traffic about an airsoft SMLE a while back but that's probably only out in Japan if it exists at all. But airsofts are getting better all the time. e.g I recently picked up a second hand wood and steel AKS74 for a fraction of the cost of a deact and it looks fine.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby 7thLeicesters » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:28 pm

World Wide Arms doing them online for a decent price. Just got myself a 1917 dated SMLE from elsewhere for 395, so not too badly priced i'd say - as has been said, price will only go up, consider it an investment, like all decent kit!


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby abaddon1974 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:32 pm

Hopefully no one is de-activating them anymore. There needs to be some live firing ones left for use.



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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Dixie » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:57 pm

Sadly they still are deactivating them. Apparently the UK live market is not big enough for the numbers that are being brought into the country at present. They know that they will get a sale from a deact quick enough.
So get out there and buy a live one and not a deact!
I have two live ones, one for shooting and a slightly less rare MKIII* for blank firing reenacting.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby spydde » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:40 pm

yes seen a live one on t'internet at £250 which is a bargain, but not got the licence - yet


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby abaddon1974 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:34 am

Waiting for my licence to come through at the moment.
Hopefully not too long to wait.



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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Dixie » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:03 am

incidently i found out this year that there is a competition shoot between the various WW1 societies that have members who have live firers.
Another reason to go live :)


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby 7thLeicesters » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:56 pm

Any more details of this? Not aware of it myself and a member of two societies


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby acecat999 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:58 pm

Dixie wrote:incidently i found out this year that there is a competition shoot between the various WW1 societies that have members who have live firers.
Another reason to go live :)


But as you know without membership of a full bore target rifle club the police are unlikely to give FAC holders any access to live ammunition........
Some forces positively dislike people using the same gun for live and reenactment


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby abaddon1974 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:43 am

Luckily my local force does not mind, the nice licencing gent has reccomended a small local club which I was not aware of should I wish to start live firing.



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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Dixie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:24 am

acecat999 wrote:But as you know without membership of a full bore target rifle club the police are unlikely to give FAC holders any access to live ammunition........
Some forces positively dislike people using the same gun for live and reenactment


it took a while to 'educate' my local firearms officer. If you do spend the time to develop a good relationship with your local licencing team it can be worth while. My local team were very 'thorough' just because they did not understand what the hobby involved and what I wanted to do.
You can attend shoots as a guest to a club and that could be put down as a condition of your licence and therefore not hold live ammunition.
All things are possible with good communication.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby acecat999 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:21 pm

Dixie wrote:
acecat999 wrote:But as you know without membership of a full bore target rifle club the police are unlikely to give FAC holders any access to live ammunition........
Some forces positively dislike people using the same gun for live and reenactment


it took a while to 'educate' my local firearms officer. If you do spend the time to develop a good relationship with your local licencing team it can be worth while. My local team were very 'thorough' just because they did not understand what the hobby involved and what I wanted to do.
You can attend shoots as a guest to a club and that could be put down as a condition of your licence and therefore not hold live ammunition.
All things are possible with good communication.


well most of my friends FEOs go by the book as does mine. Don't know which book it is though. I gave up trying to educate them as they change every 5 mins too.

But some areas are VERY obdurate about their own interpretation of the rules so its rather follishly presumptious to assume that your experience of attempted "communication" acheived anything.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Phil the Grips » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:13 pm

acecat999 wrote:But some areas are VERY obdurate about their own interpretation of the rules so its rather follishly presumptious to assume that your experience of attempted "communication" acheived anything.

I'll say that it does tie in with my experience of L&B's FO team- once they realised there is more out there than the Sealed Knot (who they expected me to join in order to get any ticket when I first enquired around 2000 despite the fact I had no interest in C17th stuff) they have been very amenable to expanding their view of different era's and individual's reenactment's needs and issuing accordingly (having a local vintage firearms club with a range helps too). Trying to get them over their dislike of issuing A&K licences in tenement buildings is an entirely tougher matter...


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Dixie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:15 pm

I also had the callenge of explaining that the SK did not have anything to do with the Napoleonic period, but that officer from L&B has now moved on.
I also had to do a shotgun course, despite being around firearms, running ranges and teaching shooting with a variety of calibres. I had not used a shotgun before and as a smoothbore musket is classes as a shotgun I had to spend £120 on the course.
When it came to the flintlock pistols I had to produce a document with proof that the character I chose to portray used them.
The condition on my licence was it has to be used with an appopriate reenactment society and no live ammunition. No dramas there but as I am part of a vintage shooting club I have gone back to the firearms licencing team and had the conditions amended.
It was quite tough to get through initially but even he said that they can not refuse a licence if you have good cause to have one and responsible reenacting is good cause.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby acecat999 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:25 pm

Dixie wrote:I also had the callenge of explaining that the SK did not have anything to do with the Napoleonic period, but that officer from L&B has now moved on.
I also had to do a shotgun course, despite being around firearms, running ranges and teaching shooting with a variety of calibres. I had not used a shotgun before and as a smoothbore musket is classes as a shotgun I had to spend £120 on the course.
When it came to the flintlock pistols I had to produce a document with proof that the character I chose to portray used them.
The condition on my licence was it has to be used with an appopriate reenactment society and no live ammunition. No dramas there but as I am part of a vintage shooting club I have gone back to the firearms licencing team and had the conditions amended.
It was quite tough to get through initially but even he said that they can not refuse a licence if you have good cause to have one and responsible reenacting is good cause.


funny, I wouldn't say I have a "relationship" or have "educated" my FEO. I just filled in a form and 2 weeks later he came around and said where he wanted the cabinet..... and checked the house. then every 2 years (the wife and my certs are staggered) they come around and check that we haven't got anything in one of the cabinets they didn't know about.

no courses, no conditions, no dramas wasn't even difficult.

of course I've never asked for anything that the rule book doesn't allow, but its always good to make it seem difficult isn't it.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Dixie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:11 pm

acecat999 wrote:funny, I wouldn't say I have a "relationship" or have "educated" my FEO. I just filled in a form and 2 weeks later he came around and said where he wanted the cabinet..... and checked the house. then every 2 years (the wife and my certs are staggered) they come around and check that we haven't got anything in one of the cabinets they didn't know about.

no courses, no conditions, no dramas wasn't even difficult.

of course I've never asked for anything that the rule book doesn't allow, but its always good to make it seem difficult isn't it.


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Re: Honest Opinion Wanted (I know that I will get it here)

Postby Joolz » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:59 am

To continue meandering off topic, my current FEO is a WWII re-enactor himself, and also makes arms and armour, and is a member of one of my clubs. Needless to say, I've not had any issues with him (quite the opposite!). My last one nearly had apoplexy when going through all my 'toys' (and not just the ones that go 'bang'), and ended up making a simple process that bit more complicated.....

I have found that being on excellent terms with a good, knowledgeable, local gun dealer has been essential in helping me get what I want from my local firearms admin team. Also, not being intimidated, being firm yet polite, and being prepared to negotiate to reach a common position, are all good skills when dealing with licensing issues. Being honest and having a good reputation in the local community helps, too. But at the end of the day, your FEO is a 'facilitator' - as long as you satisfy him/her that you aren't a nutter and you aren't going to make them regret ever having let you have a gun, as long as you are compliant and responsible, they are happy to just be 'administrators' of the law rather than 'enforcers'.....just my 2p worth.

Luck, as you say, probably also has lots to do with the quality of service you get from your FEO (which isn't really acceptable, when you think about it, but I'm not complaining at the moment!).

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