uniform dating

JC Milwr · Post by **JC Milwr** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:59 pm

Is there anyone on this forum who might be able to date a soldier for me?

I have no idea how much uniforms changed in the early years of the 20th century, but I'm trying to ascertain whether this chappie is posing during WW1 or after...

thanks for any help!

I can email a bigger version if it'd help!

Lord Byron · Post by **Lord Byron** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:37 am

100% Great War photograph - he's wearing the Simplified version of the 1902 Service Dress Tunic introduced in late 1914/early 1915 to speed up production (no rifle patches on the shoulders and larger unpleated breast pockets), as well as the waistbelt of the 1914 Pattern leather webbig (introduced again in late 1914/early 1915 to supplement the 1908 Pattern canvas webbing that couldn't as yet be manufactured in sufficient quantities to meet demand). He's also wearing the pre-1921 version of the stiff-peaked cap, which had largely disappeared by 1916 (when the trench cap largely replaced it until the end of the war when it reappeared). So most likely a 1915/16 era picture when it's all put together.

Lord Byron · Post by **Lord Byron** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:38 am

PS Norfolk Regiment cap badge as well if my eyes don't deceive me.

Dreadnought · Post by **Dreadnought** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:14 pm

Lord Byron wrote:PS Norfolk Regiment cap badge as well if my eyes don't deceive me.

just checked with an old photo from a friend of her grandfather (great war veteran) identical outfit, and yes he was down in the East Anglia region. Top Marks

JC Milwr · Post by **JC Milwr** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:30 pm

Wow, really?

Thanks!

That either means it isn't the ancestor I thought it was, or he went to war but none of his descendants knew. I guess he could have got invalided out or something, more research methinks!

Thankyou very much folks

Norfolk too? Hmmm, more mysteries, this family are Londoners...
Starting to wonder if it really is a family member

Sorry, genealogical rambling, I'll shuttup now

Jalea

Dreadnought · Post by **Dreadnought** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:13 pm

JC Milwr wrote:Wow, really?

Thanks!

That either means it isn't the ancestor I thought it was, or he went to war but none of his descendants knew. I guess he could have got invalided out or something, more research methinks!

Thankyou very much folks

Norfolk too? Hmmm, more mysteries, this family are Londoners...
Starting to wonder if it really is a family member

Sorry, genealogical rambling, I'll shuttup now

Jalea

quite a lot of East Anglians end up in London, the friend I mentioneds lot were from Norwich, but then gradually faded towards the "Smoke" so a possibility this happened somewhere in the mists of time?

JC Milwr · Post by **JC Milwr** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:50 pm

Did one get to choose which regiment got conscripted to?

Would you mind awfully checking the date of this one too? This is supposedly the previous gentleman's brother, and this poor soul did die in the war:

I love that this forum has experts from every era, you guys rock

Lord Byron · Post by **Lord Byron** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:53 pm

JC Milwr wrote:Did one get to choose which regiment got conscripted to?

Would you mind awfully checking the date of this one too? This is supposedly the previous gentleman's brother, and this poor soul did die in the war:

I love that this forum has experts from every era, you guys rock

Great War again - same Simplified Tunic as before and same cap. Apparently on Mounted Duties - wearing spurs and putties wound knee-to-ankle (as opposed to ankle-to-knee for most other soldiers), with breeches as well by the looks of things. Badge s a bit blurred though, will need to have a bit of a check tgo see if it can be got (unless you have some clues like a service number or regiment!).

Lord Byron · Post by **Lord Byron** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:59 pm

Lord Byron wrote:
Great War again - same Simplified Tunic as before and same cap. Apparently on Mounted Duties - wearing spurs and putties wound knee-to-ankle (as opposed to ankle-to-knee for most other soldiers), with breeches as well by the looks of things. Badge s a bit blurred though, will need to have a bit of a check tgo see if it can be got (unless you have some clues like a service number or regiment!).

Just had a quick check, badge is probably of a Cavalry Regiment, but too blurry to say definately - some possible candidates are Life Guards, Royal Horse Guards, Queens Owns Hussars... - if you could get a clearer image of what appear to be roman numerals at the centre it should be fairly easy then.

Dreadnought · Post by **Dreadnought** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:38 am

JC Milwr wrote:Did one get to choose which regiment got conscripted to?

Would you mind awfully checking the date of this one too? This is supposedly the previous gentleman's brother, and this poor soul did die in the war:

I love that this forum has experts from every era, you guys rock

This is quite a splendid picture, it really show the fashion of the time for the big moustache, and the picture is very similar to (the people I mentioned earlier fron east anglia) the photo I mentioned, he may (? wild guess) be attached to something like The Royal Field Artillery, as he looks darned similar to my friends Grandfather

and this is what he was in, they also have a lovely picture of him on "Smokey" his mount in the RFA.

Lord Byron is your small boy here though, I bow to his superior knowlege of this era.

Minor edit to remove bad language, DB

Lord Byron · Post by **Lord Byron** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:26 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
This is quite a splendid picture, it really show the fashion of the time for the big moustache, and the picture is very similar to (the people I mentioned earlier fron east anglia) the photo I mentioned, he may (? wild guess) be attached to something like The Royal Field Artillery, as he looks darned similar to my friends Grandfather and this is what he was in, they also have a lovely picture of him on "Smokey" his mount in the RFA.

Lord Byron is your man here though, I bow to his superior knowlege of this era.

Technically, in the Army until 1916 when the regulations were officially relaxed, unless you had some medical reason you were supposed to have a moustache full stop! Of course, with the influx of volunteers and reservists from 1914 onwards, many of whom were regularly clean shaven in civvy street, it started to become widely ignored rule (hence the official relaxation).

The kit he is wearing is typical for mounted duties - unfortunately (even though it's actually the case here!) people assume this means the soldier is either a cavalry man or a member of the RHA/RFA/RA, etc, whereas ALL regiments would have had men performing mounted duties, in which case the kit they would have worn would have been the same!

JC Milwr · Post by **JC Milwr** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:29 pm

My uncle found some more pics of Arthur (the second chap I posted).
This one answers a question or two, but raises loads more!

What rank is he? I'm completely ignorant on stripes etc! Family legend states that the first pic was taken in or near Jerusalem in WW1, is that likely?

EDIT: Looks like he might have been a serjeant in the Royal veterinary corp, does that correlate?

Nutcracker · Post by **Nutcracker** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:58 pm

First pic has three stripes so definately a serjeant

Lord Byron · Post by **Lord Byron** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:50 pm

JC Milwr wrote:My uncle found some more pics of Arthur (the second chap I posted).
This one answers a question or two, but raises loads more!

What rank is he? I'm completely ignorant on stripes etc! Family legend states that the first pic was taken in or near Jerusalem in WW1, is that likely?

EDIT: Looks like he might have been a serjeant in the Royal veterinary corp, does that correlate?

Nutcracker wrote:First pic has three stripes so definately a serjeant

Bother, had a long reply and computer had a wobbly!

Top picture - Sergeants stripes are visible, but there may also be another badge above them that can influence what the rank is or what his role in that rank was (or it may be a trick of the light!).

He's carrying a holstered pistol (just visible under his left arm). He's wearing the typical cotton drill uniform for tropical environments (which would fit for Jerusalem, or Egypt, etc). Slouch hat is unusual, but not impossibe - if there is a cap badge on his hat, then it's too blurry to see, a high resolution scan of the cap and his rank will probably solve it one way or the other.

Lord Byron · Post by **Lord Byron** » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:53 pm

Lower picture - typical tropical cotton drill uniform again of a mounted soldier (breeches, puttees wound knee-to-ankle, spurs), this time with the more usual Wolseley pith helmet. The badge is just ever so slightly too blurred for me to get at the moment - it's a very clear frontal shot, so a slightly higher resolution photo or scan and I'm certain it'll be obvious!

JC Milwr · Post by **JC Milwr** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:11 pm

We think this is the same badge, worn by a female relative after the war:

Lord Byron · Post by **Lord Byron** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:02 am

JC Milwr wrote:We think this is the same badge, worn by a female relative after the war:

That is the cap badge of the Army Veterinary Corps (you can just see the letters AVC superimposed on each other within the wreath (they weren't granted "Royal" status until just after the end of the Great War, after which their cap badge was significantly redesigned). It does also appear a good match for that on the Wolseley so far!

JC Milwr · Post by **JC Milwr** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:31 pm

you are a gent sir, and I owe you a pint

Lord Byron · Post by **Lord Byron** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:03 am

JC Milwr wrote:you are a gent sir, and I owe you a pint

Not at all, it's what us WW1 chappies are here for!