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ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:00 am
by Joolz
Blackmore makes reference to an account by Orrery of musketeers using cartridge boxes (made of tin, cased in leather) in 'Arms & Armour of the ECW', for holding paper cartridges. He claims they were preferable to 'apostles' (which I personally can't abide). Do we have any contemporary pics of these boxes, as I would be interested in making one up (or having one made up!). Or do we just extrapolate what they looked like from later cartridge boxes (from the F&I period, for instance). When do boxes with wooden inserts start coming in?

Joolz

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:47 am
by Merlon.
The Orrey statement is vague
Image
The only other mention of tin cartrdge boxes in the Mungeam papers is just as vague.
No known examples survive

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:00 am
by steve stanley
I believe the earliest surviving are from the end of the century/early next,(ie. the Phipps one and the Whydah one)....rather than the wood insert,a wood "lining" is used......

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:52 pm
by Tod
I made one based on the bits found in a ship off the Canadian coast. It was ages ago that I found the web site and had to get most of it translated (it was in French). The one I made should have been lined with wood but I used it once and never bothered to finish it, I've still got it though.
You're not the only one that dislikes bandoliers, I much prefer cartridges but try making them out off soft loo roll :roll: :lol: Izal isn't easy to get these days.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:58 am
by Joolz
Is that the Whydah one? I've been tempted to get one of those to add to my GAOP collection. As you (and Steve) say, the original had a thin wooden lining to it, stitched in place.

What I'm really after is something earlier (to go with a matchlock musket). There's so little evidence out there from this period - would it have been worn on the hip or would it have been a belly box? Rectangular or curved?

For paper cartridges for my pistols, I use the big rizlas. I lick and stick them to the ball like a skirt, fill them with a measure of powder, and twist them shut. When I'm on the line, I just nip off the twist tail with my fingers, pour the powder and drop the ball in. I don't bother with a patch or wad, as the extra thickness of the paper skirt usually makes for a tighter fit in the bore (never had a chainfire or loose ball yet....). Rizla paper is pretty tough (certainly a lot tougher than loo roll) and not prohibitively expensive. I've also used greaseproof (tracing?) paper to make tubes for paper cartridges for shot & wad.

For my Spencer carbine (which takes seven brass cartridges in the butt), I've made period 'speedloaders' from a tube of rigid paper (re-usable) with a 'tear-off' top of rizla paper. Considerably faster than dropping one round in at a time! But I digress.....

Joolz

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:53 pm
by Tod
It wasn't the Whydah. I think it was a British ship though. About 10 years ago I looked every where for refernces/pictures for 17th century cartradge boxes and didn't come up with any pictures. I could only have an educated guess. I would think that as powder horns and bandoliers are shoulder slung they may have gone down that route. Later ones are shoulder slung as belly boxes are later and usually an addition rather than the first issue. So I would suggest a should slung belt with a bag of the period style on the end.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:08 pm
by Polygone
Tod
Have you tried the paper they wrap your fish and chips in, thats what we use now izal is getting hard to find.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:39 pm
by Brand
Interesting- just today made a wooden insert for my waist pouch to hold cartridges for my blunderbuss. I use baking paper which works nicely. Earlist ones I've seen seem to be 1680 or later and shoulder slung bags. Will have a look through my books though...

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:28 am
by Joolz
That's the problem.....my 'bible' for this kind of stuff (Equipements Militaires..... http://www.reenactor.ru/ARH/PDF/Eq_Mil_Petard_1.pdf ) shows plenty of apostles, only just turning into a shoulder-slung pouch in the 1680s, and that appears to be a 'soft' pouch, not a 'hard' cartridge box, akin to the kind of pouch the American Long Gun people use, but that's from a hundred years later than I need to go with my matchlock. The only rigid container for cartridges is associated with cavalrymen (and even they are also depicted with apostles! Lord knows how that works without dismounting!).

Keep looking I guess....

Joolz

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:47 pm
by John Waller
Joolz wrote:That's the problem.....my 'bible' for this kind of stuff (Equipements Militaires..... http://www.reenactor.ru/ARH/PDF/Eq_Mil_Petard_1.pdf ) shows plenty of apostles, only just turning into a shoulder-slung pouch in the 1680s, and that appears to be a 'soft' pouch, not a 'hard' cartridge box, akin to the kind of pouch the American Long Gun people use, but that's from a hundred years later than I need to go with my matchlock. The only rigid container for cartridges is associated with cavalrymen (and even they are also depicted with apostles! Lord knows how that works without dismounting!).

Keep looking I guess....

Joolz


Joolz, please don't use the A-word. Some of us ECW types get all twitchy. It's like saying Dark Ages or Chail Mail to a early medieval type. Dave Ryan once offered a bottle of scotch for the earliest reference using that word that predated the SK. It should be well matured by now.

The only alternative to bandoliers for the ECW would seem to be flasks, pockets, or powder bags as issued to some of the Oxford army. The only thing known about the powder bags is that they were made by glovers. Which suggests to me a thin leather bag or pouch rather than a thicker leather box as used later. Wagner shows a dragoon with a cartridge box in his 30yrs War book but I don't know what original ref this is based on.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:40 pm
by Phil the Grips
Earlier there were cartridge boxes for horsemen in the Elizabethan era. They were metal and looked like the cylinder from a modern wheelgun with a lid, and had hooks to attach to a waistbelt, a bit like 1950s webbing. Annoyingly I can't find the image I had.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:07 pm
by steve stanley
I think the ones Tod's talking about is the Phipps one..Sunk in an attempt on Quebec in 1690...Correct me if I'm wrong( :D ),but I think some form of "Belly-box" is around from 1678 for Grenadiers,as they use the large pouch for grenades?.....And I believe the one Phil's talking about is a "patrone"(sp?) in German?

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:00 pm
by Foxe
John Waller wrote:Joolz, please don't use the A-word. Some of us ECW types get all twitchy. It's like saying Dark Ages or Chail Mail to a early medieval type. Dave Ryan once offered a bottle of scotch for the earliest reference using that word that predated the SK. It should be well matured by now.


I once offered Dave Ryan a bona fide example of the A-word from the 1670s, but he didn't hand over the scotch...

Henry Teonge's diary describes the comic appearance of a man "his musket in his hand and the twelve apostles rattling about him" (March, 1678)

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:51 pm
by John Waller
Foxe wrote:
John Waller wrote:Joolz, please don't use the A-word. Some of us ECW types get all twitchy. It's like saying Dark Ages or Chail Mail to a early medieval type. Dave Ryan once offered a bottle of scotch for the earliest reference using that word that predated the SK. It should be well matured by now.


I once offered Dave Ryan a bona fide example of the A-word from the 1670s, but he didn't hand over the scotch...

Henry Teonge's diary describes the comic appearance of a man "his musket in his hand and the twelve apostles rattling about him" (March, 1678)


I think then perhaps it needed to be ECW or earlier?

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:11 pm
by Foxe
That's what he said :(

Considering that it's generally stated as either an SK reenactorism or a Victorianism, I reckon 1670s ought to have been worth half a bottle of scotch and a pickled egg.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:09 pm
by Mark Griffin
can I, as a devils advocate and re-enactor prodder of the highest order, ask why, considering the number of references to all sorts of 'modern' paper for making cartridges above, there does not seem to be much use of 'proper' cartridge paper?

I don't mean the stationary type, I mean the real stuff, properly researched and made just the way grandmama would have. Readily available it you know where to look. You only need ask....

Even if its just the odd bit for show and tell stuff? Or am I being silly again.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:28 pm
by steve stanley
I even tried greasing some once.......AND tying the end up......just to show the public......

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:54 pm
by cannontickler
Foxe wrote:That's what he said :(

either an SK reenactorism or a Victorianism,



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: surely its one and the same thing Mr. Foxe :lol: :lol:

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:03 pm
by Tod
I have some cartridge paper made to be the best replica of the paper used in the 18th century. The maker posts on here but doesn't sell (paper) as far as I know, I'll have to ask him before I name him. The nearest looking would be brown wrapping paper, the type you can see lines on but cream coloured.
I made some replica cartridges out of it some time ago.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:04 am
by Joolz
Mark,

I think you answered your own question. If it's for show-and-tell then fair enough, go to the trouble and expense of sourcing the right paper, tying up a cartridge correctly etc. Make up a dozen or so (dummy) cartridges.

But on a good session down the range, I go through at least three dozen cartridges. Minimum. If it's for demonstrations, then those cartridges would just be blanks (ie. powder only, not even wadding, usually). So what would be the point of going to all the trouble and expense.......?

Joolz

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:22 pm
by John Waller
I made some display cartridges using some very nice handmade paper Gregory23b kindly gave me, all tied up proper and all. Couscous makes a reasonable gunpowder substitute. Doing a little research into the subject I was interested to see in the napoleonic era that were often made up by nimble-fingered young boys. I forget how many they were expected to make in a day but it was a staggering number.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:14 pm
by Tod
OK he's named :D That's where I got mine from.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:37 pm
by cannontickler
Tod wrote:I made one based on the bits found in a ship off the Canadian coast. It was ages ago that I found the web site and had to get most of it translated (it was in French). The one I made should have been lined with wood but I used it once and never bothered to finish it, I've still got it though.
You're not the only one that dislikes bandoliers, I much prefer cartridges but try making them out off soft loo roll :roll: :lol: Izal isn't easy to get these days.


what ho Captain Todmeister, your not referring to the ' operation Phips shipwreck ' cartridge pouch i posted on the distateful forum a couple years back are you......??

http://www.mcccf.gouv.qc.ca/phips/wreck01.htm

http://www.mcccf.gouv.qc.ca/phips/phips9c.htm

this one is quite interesting Mr. Joolz, late 17th but with stave support within, sort of like bones in a corset, to stiffen it all up enough to be a flexible yet firm cartridge carrier, cleverly practical, the pic at the base of page giving an idea of finished look.

we were going to have a bash at making a few back in the days when i was still half interested in 17th century warfare, but yes you've guessed it, i too was in the SK all those years ago and of course beer was far more important than authenticity, oh those youthful, naive, bad old days when life was so much simpler and counting stitches wasn't the main obsession of the serious reenactment world..........
:lol:

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:03 am
by Joolz
Here's an interpretation of the wooden stiffening of the Whydah box, to give some idea of what it may have looked like (courtesy of this thread on another forum: http://pyracy.com/index.php/topic/9760- ... hl__whydah).

Joolz

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:15 pm
by cannontickler
Joolz wrote:Here's an interpretation of the wooden stiffening of the Whydah box, to give some idea of what it may have looked like (courtesy of this thread on another forum: http://pyracy.com/index.php/topic/9760- ... hl__whydah).

Joolz


your a very clever man Dr. Joolz of the Amazon and new frontiers.
you should recieve a knighthood for your authentical works.
have you tried it out and is it practical ........???

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:38 pm
by Joolz
CT,

Much as I would like to take the credit for this one, it's not my work, unfortunately.

Letters of Marque/PoD makes an excellent copy of the Whydah box, without the wooden stiffening, if you are interested in one, at an extremely reasonable price:

http://www.lettersofmarque.co.uk/index. ... ucts_id=13

Adding the wood to it should be a doddle. However, I used the word 'interpretation' on purpose, as the stiffeners on the flap are not 100% cast-in-stone proven. The state of the find meant that their location in the construction of the box is conjecture, and there is some thought that they may be dividers to compartmentalise the inside of the box.....

Joolz

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:04 pm
by cannontickler
Joolz wrote:CT,

Much as I would like to take the credit for this one, it's not my work, unfortunately.

Letters of Marque/PoD makes an excellent copy of the Whydah box, without the wooden stiffening, if you are interested in one, at an extremely reasonable price:

http://www.lettersofmarque.co.uk/index. ... ucts_id=13

Adding the wood to it should be a doddle. However, I used the word 'interpretation' on purpose, as the stiffeners on the flap are not 100% cast-in-stone proven. The state of the find meant that their location in the construction of the box is conjecture, and there is some thought that they may be dividers to compartmentalise the inside of the box.....

Joolz


Ahh but of course, Mr. PoD with all that talent and everything, how is the fine fellow.
the dividers debate ran for quite a while on previous threads on other lesser forums,
but of course you were dealing with a mass of speculation from all the would be experts all chucking their opinions in....!
its usually the case that you have to physically use these ( repro's ) in an actual skirmish to see how they behave in order to get a better idea of an objects idiosyncrasies.
back again we harp to the need for experimental archaeology gentlemen volunteers, that shall go forward with all these speculative repro's and test them upon the field for us to take note of results.............from a distance.
i think the first thing that needs live testing is the French 18th century hand mortar and then test a few grenade cup designs.......splendid

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:54 pm
by Tod
The report I got my info. from was in French. I got a woman I used to work with to translate it. I can't find the site now but it had pictures of what they found.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:06 pm
by cannontickler
Tod wrote:The report I got my info. from was in French. I got a woman I used to work with to translate it. I can't find the site now but it had pictures of what they found.


ah hah, righto in that case can you remember that wreck that i was harping on about that had the small bar shot that nobody had a clue what it was intended for, i don't think it was the same one as the cartridge pouch wreck.
i can't get into the other forum anymore to search for it, but i'm sure it went up on there......???
i had a feeling it was an English ship..?
hang on i'll ask Andy a minute.

Re: ECW Cartridge Boxes?

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:48 am
by Tod
I hada search and I can't find it but it was long before that forum was started that I found it. Being French they may have hidden it.