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secure storing for guns

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:40 pm
by cloudy-cola-corp
Hi everyone,
i've been planning for a while now that at the end of this year or some time early next year getting my shotgun certificate. now i know that a cabinet is best for the police. but cabinets are expensive and from what people i have spoken to say unless i get a carbine, a musket probably wont fit in a cabinet. a few people i know with longer guns from my area (warwickshire) have something that is like a hoop which screws into the wall then like a pin that screws into the wall and the barrel goes through the hoop and the trigger gaurd over the pin then another piece with a lock and key goes over the pin and trigger gaurd locking this in place. and the local firearms department seem to be fine with these. I was just wondering if anyone knew where to get one, because im not totaly sure of what they are called and typing "hoop and pin gun lock" and other similar phrases into google hasn't well come up with anything. so yeah any help welcome and if its the wrong board to ask this on then sorry
Thanks

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:50 pm
by the real lord duvet
ask your policeman. every area is different. they might allow different security depending on location or security of the house.

is it something like this? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Pyke-Unive ... B002ZNLZM2 (search for gun trigger lock in google)

you can get extra tall musket cabinets anyway which sort of negates your argument about it not fitting in a cabinet?

http://www.safesecurityservices.co.uk/c ... 82a59be488

in fact plod might just suggest you can take the barrel off the woodwork to make it fit.
end of the day - talk to your FEO before buying any security. FEO might turn down your application which leaves you with a empty cabinet?


get big cabinet and you can have several guns.

but TALK TO YOUR FEO as anyone else is just guessing

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:24 pm
by steve stanley
OR..Just take the barrel off & store that in a cabinet...That's the legal 'gun' part.....And it reminds you to clean the bits you don't normally see.............. :$

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:57 pm
by chrisanson
PM redders

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:58 pm
by cloudy-cola-corp
its similar to the trigger lock but its a bit more sturdy and it bolts into the wall with a hoop bolted in above it for the barrel to sit in. and i was sort of hopeing against haveing to buy an extra tall cabinet because of cost and space :| but yes i will have a chat with the FEO but i know people literaly in the same village as me with them for the same reasons.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:24 pm
by the real lord duvet
one of my gun shop mates has everything for sale on these

http://www.directshootingsupplies.co.uk ... -lock.html


however they are on the wall of a strongroom.
in an alarmed building

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:53 pm
by cloudy-cola-corp
YES! those are the thingys i was on about :) and yeah i get that becasue i would have to put it in either the attic or in the back of my walk in waredrobe to fix it to a masonary wall thats out of public view and getting to both of those places would involve dragging a step ladder up a very thin stair case thats gated then working out how to get into the loft without pulling half the celing down. or pushing my bed a foot across and then moveing the stand with all my medieval armour and kit on to get to it.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:50 pm
by Chris T
As luck would have it I have a couple of these (unused) for sale..........BUT check first. Although the law is the same throughout the country, the police reserve the right to interpret the guidelines so differently and inflexibly as to effectively create differnt laws.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:50 pm
by musket
Hi Cloudy,I live in Warwickshire,near Stratford upon Avon,and the local firearms bod is happy with me having two muskets in the loft using the clamps in the above link.
Check first though in case yours is different.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 9:00 am
by cloudy-cola-corp
right. i'll get onto the firearms officer soon then im only about 3 mile from stratford so it may well be the same person but yes i'll speak to them and check. thanks for the help everyone

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:38 am
by Redders
If it helps, Staffordshire are the same as mentioned above.
They allow up to 2 muskets weapons to be stored using the ring and cap method.
Any more and a cabinet is the only acceptable way forward.

If you're only ever looking at 1-2 weapons then the ring and clamp (Secure space permitting) is definitely the most cost effective and secure.


Merely for info/reference - I do supply full length (70" Tall) cabinets that meet current standards and approvals.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:14 pm
by steve stanley
Sadly,Leicestershire only views the cabinet as acceptable.............. :cry: (or, at least the guy in my bit does...)

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:16 pm
by the real lord duvet
and the idea only works if the trigger guard on the gun is well held on or exists....

Most of ours have no trigger guards, or guards held only by 2 screws.......... 80 quid for 2 clamps? How much is a cabinet redders?

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:02 pm
by Redders
i remember when originally arranging it with my FO, she said they prefer the brackets to placed in a way that the trigger guard screws cannot be got at by a screwdriver.

I must confess to posting above thinking only about flintlocks that have trigger guards.
Apologies to all those that have muskets without the guard.

All the cabinets are 70" and 10" deep.
As far as i'm aware (Happy to be corrected) they are the only 70" tall cabinets available?
Also, to avoid any confusion, 70" is full length and useable. No internal ammo box or shelf to get in the way
they are available in 3 widths.

Cabinet Prices as follows:
10" Wide - £300 (3-5 Gun)
15" Wide - £340 (5-7 Gun)
20" Wide - £380 (7-9 Gun)

Metal workers will make bespoke cabinets if you enquire. Again, as far as i'm aware, they are generally in excess of £400?

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:13 pm
by Langley
Interesting discussion. Danny Kaye who writes the ELO training for all UK forces likes to get everyone singing from the same hymn sheet so I will take this up with him at the next Ordcon meeting.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:27 pm
by Redders
Something else i forgot to add about the ring and cap method.
Now, please bear in mind this is only what i've been told by my local FAO.

The ring and cap arrangement was acceptable for storage in the loft.
It would not have been acceptable for 'on view' wall mount or the like.

Had I not had the facility to store in the loft, then she would have insisted upon a cabinet.
Even for a single piece.

Derbyshire also don't allow (or at least I was told it wouldn't be acceptable) for holes to be cut in the top of a cabinet.
It's not an option i'd personally go for, it came up in discussion about what they would and wouldn't allow.

I know of some folk that have been allowed to do this elsewhere when they have normal cabinets and wish to store long arms.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:55 pm
by cloudy-cola-corp
yeah well my gun will be in the loft my parents will not accept it anywhere else in the house, and i was looking at a flintlock with trigger guard :thumbup: and i wouldn't expect more than 1/2 guns just because i don't have a need for more than that :)

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 6:39 pm
by the real lord duvet
Langley wrote:Interesting discussion. Danny Kaye who writes the ELO training for all UK forces likes to get everyone singing from the same hymn sheet so I will take this up with him at the next Ordcon meeting.

this is FEOs not ELOs.........

don't even start on the differences between areas ideas for keeping boxes of powder!


cloudy - assume you are only going to have aquire and use? not going for acquire and keep?

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:52 pm
by cloudy-cola-corp
i think so it depends on what the rules on storage of powder is like, because for rocket motors that i started a few years back but never go round to getting licenses so gave up on, it was just an insulated box with no metal within 5mm from the interal face or something and the locks had to be made so that you couldn't jsut unscrew the hinges to get it open or something like that i don't know what it is now

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 6:52 am
by the real lord duvet
langley can probably find the links to the very precise requirements for the box faster than me.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 7:06 am
by The Iron Dwarf
I used to make gun cases for vehicles and for static mobile homes, have not checked the specs for a long time though

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 7:49 am
by the real lord duvet
http://www.safesecurityservices.co.uk/c ... 3f7d873080

not that expensive for tall cabinets is it?

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 7:59 am
by chrisanson
the real lord duvet wrote:http://www.safesecurityservices.co.uk/c ... 3f7d873080

not that expensive for tall cabinets is it?

still only 59" tall though

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 9:31 am
by Redders
Exactly!

A Long Land Bess is 64"
French 28's are longer
The list could go on............

This was the reason I started looking at having them made.

Duvet, you old protagonist, you're right.
Mass produced, commercially cabinets aren't overly expensive.

As far as i'm aware there are (excluding mine) no commercially, off the shelf, cabinets available that exceed 59".
Comparing mine to one off's made by a metal bender aren't either :)

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 1:55 pm
by Langley
We had to have a long cabinet made for us and can put you in touch with the manufacturer who just happens to live next door to Lady L's Dad... Biggest one they ever made but designed to hold a cannon so not surprising.

The Manufacture and Storage Of Explosive Regulations are at http://www.hse.gov.uk/explosives/inform ... torage.htm but to be honest - does not have a lot on the design of the boxes... Will see if I can dig the details out of either the HSE or HMSO web sites for you. Duvet is right I can tell you exactly where to find them - on paper in my briefcase but I don't think that is what you really wanted!

Suggest you have a look at the HSE web site which has also got some great advice including something on Advice for Re-enactment Societies. If all else fails - ring them. They are a remarkably nice bunch of people despite all the silly jokes about being killjoys etc.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 2:28 pm
by the real lord duvet
redders
Glad to give you the chance to act the salesman.... More than once.

Langley
I have it in paper form and can't remember where i got it too... Might have been you. its also on a computer that doesn't work

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 7:09 pm
by cloudy-cola-corp
yeah its just the if can pay £50 for a hoop and lock or £300 for a cabinet and if i was going to get 5 or 6 guns then that would be perfect but im not i only want 1 or 2 and i've been looking at the charleville muskets and they are 60 inches tall

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 8:16 pm
by musket
My local FEO in Warwickshire said it was quote 'bloody silly' to cut holes in the top of a cabinet for a long gun.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:45 am
by Langley
Still searching for where the full documentation is on line but in the meantime from Mersyside Police Web site:

Black Powder

Subject to a number of conditions, storage of Black Powder is permitted at home or businesses without needing a licence / registration or applying separation distances.

Storage will be in plastic/paper containers holding no more than 550 grams of powder. No metal should be used. The containers should be in a suitable storage box. Minimum requirements:

•Constructed using 18mm ply or similar
•Compartment separators 6mm ply
•Air gap of 30% between top of powder container and top of box
•No bare metal on inside of box
•Lid to be secured and with a good seal
•The box must not be located under or near any means of access or escape. It should not be in the same room as flammable liquids or in areas where there is a risk of fire.

Re: secure storing for guns

Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:50 am
by Langley
There are plans which are compliant wiht MSER here http://www.reloading.pwp.blueyonder.co. ... torage.htm