1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

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Dathi
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Dathi »

Andy R wrote:
Dathi wrote:Joolz, Andy R.

I think we have have a tendancy to believe that the whole of the Civil War period was fought in some splendid isolation from Europe and forget just how much experience British Gentry had in fighting in Europe. See Swordsmen: The Martial Ethos in the Three Kingdoms by Roger Manning for a good study of this. Pre 1645 and the New Modelled Standing Army, and particularly in the first year at the least, I strongly suspect that strong European influences would give some forces a much more TYW look that we accept or suspect. There's a thread in here that lists a fair few Officers who survived in Europe over the previous 20 years and we forget that some areas had very strong trading links with the Dutch, Baltic, Denmark, France and Spain. As an example there are at least 3 Dutch men serving as Officers under Sir John Hotham in 1642 - 1643.
Hi Dathi,

Ideas were the easy part transported accross - look how tercios etc were formed in the Dutch and Swedish style for an imediate give away.

BUT, specialised equipment was much reduced compared to the continent - buff coats for infantry and the sheer number of armoured horse on the continent - look how much full cuirasse and 3/4 armour was used where as it was uncommon from the begining and rarely seen after Roundway Down.

The biggest draw back for supplying cuirassiers in Britain was the supply of horses big enough to take the weight, that more than anything is the main reason, I suspect, that Cuirassiers feel out of favour. It was hard enough keeping harquebusiers properly mounted, Sir Henry Westby from Rotherham had to replace 24 horses in 6 months during late 1643 and into 1664 whilst spending most of that time in quarters. Capt.Griffen from the Eastern Assocation required 45 replacement mounts in 12 months.

The arms trade from Europe was pretty substantial but I wouldn't expect anyone to waste effort importing many buffcoats and would only really expect buffcoats on officers, which does include sergeants.

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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Andy R »

Indeed. (buff coats on Sgt.)

Hairy natives on a whole are pretty good at carrying weight over distance and are more dynamic than some would give them credence for.

But there is also the maintenance of the armour - it needs constant repair to be field worthy which means you have to have the support caperbilities in your train (from what I have read anyway)


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Andy
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

I have written a book on 'The War Horse of the English Civil War', yet to be published due to its sliced loaf characteristics. lol. Without running off topic too much, I only used primary source down to dockets and first hand accounts. I found so much evidence for masses of Cuirassier in the ECW even down to Cromwell having a full troop when he came across to Edgehill, to a full Regiment under Lord Sandwich (Parliament), in the East, again under Cromwell. This information goes as far as the receipt for the purchase of Lances (yes full lances!!), 600 lances for this regiment. Ofcourse, I would agree there were masses of heavy cavalry on the continent but don't be confused by the writings of second hand sources who regergitate each other over and over. Primary all the way :D

As a footnote to the above, it then brings into focus why Cromwell turned up late for the battle of Edgehill. His whole regiment would have been slowed by the heavies.

As for the other side, Newcastle also raised a full regiment of heavy cavalry which was appointed in grey silk.

Didn't mention Haselrigg as I thought you were talking about him at Roundway.

There is an account of a Saddleryin the Midlands who was making Great Saddles for the King's Army in Oxford. As you know the Great Saddle is used primarily for heavy cavalry as it replaces the balance and support lost by the cavalryman and allows shock contact. The reason I know of this guy is simple. The Parliament garrison at Warwick Castle got wind of the shipment of these saddlles and there is a report of them snaffling them on route.

As a footnote, have a look at the Landeszeughaus Museum site in Graz. A massive collection of C16th/17th armour.

http://www.museum-joanneum.at/de/landes ... zeughaus-3
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Joolz »

Steenie,
Re. your 'Circulus' - I did a similar thing in my front room (not having an other half to worry about) with masking tape, when I first started out in WMA. Spent many an hour 'dancing about' with the fire up the chimney and a CD on the machine, rapier in hand. Indeed, I would recommend any newcomer to rapier should at least lay out a 'compass' on their floor to practice footwork.

As for public demonstrations, the salle I run is a chapter of the Society for the Study of Swordsmanship, and we regularly give public demonstrations of historic swordplay, sometimes at living history shows such as Sheffield, although not in costume.

Definately meandering off topic........

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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

Joolz wrote:Steenie,
Re. your 'Circulus' - I did a similar thing in my front room (not having an other half to worry about) with masking tape, when I first started out in WMA. Spent many an hour 'dancing about' with the fire up the chimney and a CD on the machine, rapier in hand. Indeed, I would recommend any newcomer to rapier should at least lay out a 'compass' on their floor to practice footwork.

I totally totally agree totally!! One can sit down and read manuals until one is blind, but in a very short time, unless you are Brainiac, all one is reading is, as the Bard said, 'Words words words'. Practical application is the way, totally! :thumbup:
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Andy R »

STEENIE wrote: I totally totally agree totally!! One can sit down and read manuals until one is blind, but in a very short time, unless you are Brainiac, all one is reading is, as the Bard said, 'Words words words'. Practical application is the way, totally! :thumbup:
It also helps if you are practising against someone.

To quote Bruce Lee, "Chairs don't fight back"
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

Back in Blighty!!!

Andy, so true, it really helps to have something to parry to train to parry :lol:
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

I must admit, in the last while, I have given up prancing around my circulus. I have moved on to crouching down as if I have the trots and I am on a hard shoulder. This is down to the manuals for training with the p1908.

Spend more time in my back fields working on speeds per gait, working towards a time when I will be able to move my Brigade of Cavalry for mile upon mile (in my dreams).

I think I need to start a new thread about sword of C20th cavalry, but I don'tknow how without consigning my efforts to a one hit wonder :thumbdown:

Andy, why hasn't your group applied to take part in the International Cavalry Competition 2012 in Poznan Poland?? Always room for good people.
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Andy R »

STEENIE wrote: Andy, why hasn't your group applied to take part in the International Cavalry Competition 2012 in Poznan Poland?? Always room for good people.
Time and money Stan.

In the middle of the Bicentennials and after putting together the post 1812 kit for Waterloo last year, we are on the the pre 1812 for Albuera this year - that and I am looking at a new horse as I have a long term loaner at the moment.

Ta,
Andy
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

Ahhh Money!!! A b**ger isn't it. I work on the old Regency saying 'pay the tailor and be damned' I have translated that into, 'use the plastic and be damned' :devil:
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

Andy,

If you have a new boy, you must get your hands on the work by Louis Nolan: 'The Training of Cavalry Remount Horses: A New System, 1852'. You can get it off of Amazon. WHAT A WORK!! It is a system he brought over after working with the French Cavalry. I tell you this, this book has really helped me in teaching my new boy the way.

I think atlast I have gone too far off of a tangent from someone asking about how to tie on a C17th sword, to talking about C19th cavalry remount education. Sorry :$
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Andy R »

My wife has a copy of Nolan, but also the original French schooling.

There are a number of schools of classical training, and my wife (and therefore I) subscribe to the French school over the German or Spanish.

She can give the heritage of the schooling off pat - all I know is it is French and it is what I am told to do. :D

It worked with the one I am competing on now - he was 12, green, very little ridden work and has done everything from cross country to dressage to show jumping to pegging. In a one hour session with him I went from introducing him to shooting while mounted and finished jumping 2'6 shooting balloons off the wings.


Anyway, baldrics......
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

Francois Baucher was the man.His main work was called: 'Méthode d'équitation basée sur de nouveaux principes' first published in 1842. Nolan spent a lot of time with him before he wrote his work. Nolan first thought of only translating Bucher's work (he said this in the introduction of his book), but decided to make a better fist of it and write a new work. Also, hence the name of the bit;'The Filet Baucher' a bit he invented as a step towards the use of a full military bit. Indeed, as you know, if you look to a Pelham, if you knock off the lower cheeks you end up with the Filet Baucher. I do prefer this bit over a standard snaffle as it has a degree of poll action and eases the natural elevation of the snaffle bit.

I am not to sure about the Baldric thing. I am sure in the field it would make more sense but I have seen examples of a waist hanger all the way through. Anyway, in the final conclusion 50/50. Or to be more accurate, 'do what you feel' :rock:
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

The man himself:

Plus the Filet Baucher bit for those that haven't a clue what Andy and I are talking about :crazy:
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Dathi »

Hanger/Baldric is I think influenced by what you wear.

Have a look at this image http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Cnster.jpg

All the fashionable men from 1648 have baldrics. Their doublets have no clear waist line or they are in buffcoats.

The try this one

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... pagnie.jpg

Look at the pikemen on the far right, one has a baldric whilst one of them has a hanger that looks to be using the belt at the waist of his armour as a girdle, more clearly seen in the centre right armoured figure

Then this one

http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-c-381.z

Mostly girdles and hangers with one man in a buff coat with a Baldric on.....

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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Chris T »

The curassier by the later stages of the European Wars normally wore part armour only, despite retaining the name. I can see no real differences between equipment levels on either side of the Channel: the only items which do not seem to occur as standard in the ECW are those things that were on the way out in Europe (full curassier armour, sword and buckler / halberd armed troops) or were fringe regional or special purpose troops (grenzers, croats etc)

The constant pictures of soldiers in buffcoats in Europe may not prove their use in the UK, but it does indicate that buffcoats were not so expensive as to be totally unavailable to such soldiers.

Re-enactment fashion goes in cycles: in the past there were clearly far too many pseudobuffcoats and bad buckettopped boots in ECW reenactment, but those who sought (with good reason) to correct this often went far beyond the available evidence. The commonly held belief that buffcoats cost 'more than £10' is an example of this (often willful) distortion. Having made numerous buffcoats using period methods I can confirm that decorated, lined, sleeved coats in premium grade leather was an expensive item....but I would estimate that a simple, function item could be produced for a cost similar to that of an 'issue' soldiers coat.
It seems to be accepted that many of the London Trained Bandes had buffcoats. London was clearly the largest and richest city by far: but it also had by far the largest Trained Bandes, so it would seem that the average member would have been no richer than the average member of the (much smaller) Trained Bandes of the smaller towns. I believe that the London Bandes were noted for their Buff because they were one of the few Trained Bandes of operate in their original form as field army units. Most TB's either remained in their towns, or were broken up or reconstituted.

As to marching in bucket-top boots, I have marched 50 miles in four and a half days, followed by an estimated 15 miles in the next two days in a pair of these, with no problems....a reasonable rate for a period army.

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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

Chris T,

I cannot see one flaw in the points you have made.
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Chris T »

Kind words indeed Steenie!

I expect somebody else will!

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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

Chris T, You are welcome.

Andy, Here is me and my boy 'Brookie' in the cold today in my outdoor school. I hate the cold!!! I bought him last year as a Champion Point to Pointer. His shape has changed and he looks more like the all rounder that I need for military riding as against the straight line speed machine that he was. Nonetheless, you may have noticed the wooden plank I have had to use to keep him standing up!! lol. Mind you, in a straight line at full gallop, he scares the crap out of me. :wtf:

Note the Filet Baucher :thumbup:
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

Almost back to the subject, I note someone above talked about 'back swords'. If you are talking about a sword with one edge I am with you, but if you talking about a sword slung on the back, then if you can show me any provenance for such slinging I will be amazed. Unless you can, I believe that such slinging of a sword, so the hilt sticks up over a shoulder, is only found in Brave Heart, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or by strange kilted things that appear at ECW battle reenactments.
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Joolz »

Don't worry, Steenie, a backsword is indeed a single edged sword with a false (or even a sharpened) back edge extending part of the way down the spine (as opposed to a double-edged broadsword).

Say no to Hollywood hokum! Real men don't carry their swords on their backs!

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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Andy R »

STEENIE wrote:or by strange kilted things that appear at ECW battle reenactments.
Now when I was strange kilted thing in the Sk I had a backsword (in a baldrick, and period design) but most importantly I had a musket as well
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Tod »

STEENIE wrote:Almost back to the subject, I note someone above talked about 'back swords'. If you are talking about a sword with one edge I am with you, but if you talking about a sword slung on the back, then if you can show me any provenance for such slinging I will be amazed. Unless you can, I believe that such slinging of a sword, so the hilt sticks up over a shoulder, is only found in Brave Heart, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or by strange kilted things that appear at ECW battle reenactments.
So you've seen that at ECW events have you? Or are you just making it up? Because it doesn't happen in the SK or ECWS. Or are you talking about 20 years ago? :roll:

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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Andy R »

Tod wrote:
STEENIE wrote:Almost back to the subject, I note someone above talked about 'back swords'. If you are talking about a sword with one edge I am with you, but if you talking about a sword slung on the back, then if you can show me any provenance for such slinging I will be amazed. Unless you can, I believe that such slinging of a sword, so the hilt sticks up over a shoulder, is only found in Brave Heart, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or by strange kilted things that appear at ECW battle reenactments.
So you've seen that at ECW events have you? Or are you just making it up? Because it doesn't happen in the SK or ECWS. Or are you talking about 20 years ago? :roll:
Wotcha Tod,

this was before your time, but they did exist up to the early 90's as a prime example of tartanalia wang

That said, I saw Gordon's with one at Detling in 2004, and Peachy used one up till the late 90's at shows that had a long walk to the battlefield.
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Tod »

No one in Gordon's ever had a back scabbard, the only person who ever had Claymores were Pete K, Steve E and me. Pete used his instead of a pole arm (which stopped the I'll stick you with my pole arm but you can't hit me officers coming near us). Steve E and I only use them on LH or cameo's. If there were Highlanders with Claymores there with back scabbards it wasn't us.
The '90's were pretty awful. I've seen the pictures :roll: :o :lol:

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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Andy R »

Not so, so I will PM you.

Some of the stuff from the mid 90's was of a far higher quality than what you have in Gordon's today - and a lot of it was not.

I am not happy with the Gordon's kit guide as it is very far from the mark in my oppinion - especially as Gordon's were an east coast "plastic" unit like Farquarson's and Frasers who are not Q culture and all refferences point toward lowland dress and equipment. No refferences for highland dress till the 18th century, and thre are still refferences from highland culture where they are still reffered to as lowland.
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by STEENIE »

I am sorry I mentioned kilts lol.

By the same token, Lowland is Lowland and Highland Clan is Highland Clan. Putting it another way, authentic to unit is authentic to unit. Mind you, in the last war my Father, who was in the first wave at D day and collected an MM and Bar, was in the Highland Light Infantry, but as they were based in Glasgow, they were the first to say they were lowland. There, that was me trying to deflect the argument :D
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Neil Johnston »

Hi Andy mate
Not so sure about them being Lowland, as a clan as a whole entity maybe yes, they did come from the border area originally and the gentry are certainly not Q Celts per se but I'm sure Minimore's men and other are described at Alford as highlanders by Gordon of Ruthven, in fact I dug around and here are a selection of quotes........

"the main battel consisteing of Huntlyes his hylanderes, and of those of Strathbogie"
and
"the maine body of the Royalists battel was given to James Farquharson......for that they consisted of the most part of Huntly's hylanders a mane who they both lowed and understood for he had there language"
and again
"In this maine battel were tuo hundereth Straithawine men lead by William Gordon of Minimore, a waliant gentleman"

The geography of the Gordon lands like those of Atholl, Breadalbane etc certainly allows for both cultural groups to be identifiable in the clan territory. Strathavan and Glenlivet are markedly different from the Strathbogie, Banff and Turriff areas.
I do believe that any re-enactment of a Gordon regiment should be able to reflect both aspects of this identity.
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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Andy R »

To a degree Neil, but references (if only I had them handy) describe folk east of that divide as Lowland in a derogative way (it was in relation to customs, generosity, and lack there of)

Have you any information about Gordon’s going in to the field dressed, armed and equipped as a highland body of troops at any point?

Everything I have says no. Certainly aspects of Highland apparel come in to play, (fly plaids, targes and the like), but that is all I have come across (this is while researching Farquaharson’s and making use of June’s extensive library and Tony being at Aberdeen uni at the time) There is a lot about them being dressed, armed and equipped as a regular body of foot(e), and other items can be thought of as apparel picked up as part of the guerrilla campaign.

One of my other gripes is this whole uniform coats with plaids thing – any references to that? Never seen any myself.

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Re: 1618-1648 sword or rapier hanger

Post by Neil Johnston »

I see where you are coming from Andy. :)
No I have seen no references to them being dressed as what we would consider a distinctively highland body although Ruthven does pick them out as highland troops, he was a Gordon himself though so could have known the personalities involved rather than recognise them by any distinct clothing.
Certainly no reference to a uniform coat...an assumption that "hodden" in all its many shades would be worn is probably not far off the mark but it is likely other colours would no doubt have been used where available or indeed as personal preference. 17thC uniformity is unlikely even in the Armie of the Covenant viz "reid coats" in regiments posted back from Ireland etc.
I don't think there is anything definitive regarding Gordon's highland troops although I think there is a reference to Huntly himself wearing trews and a bonnet when he escaped to Strathnaver; another Highland area (probable home of the Stettin print guys).....which could indicate a propensity for highland dress or, opening a bigger can of worms, that of course could be construed as Irish dress :crazy:
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