Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

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Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Tod » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:01 am

I'm looking for some info about Montrose and Prince Rupert and their time in Towcester, along with their work fortifying the town.
Can any one help?



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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Andy R » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:53 pm

They were actually together?

Rupert was builidng defenses in Autumn '43 and Montrose didn't start fighting for the king till Autumn '44.

Still, as my knowledge here comes from the pop-up book of the Civil War, so I'd be interested to know what's what meself.


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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Merlon. » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:36 pm

Montrose was Royalist from the start, but I was not aware he was at Towcester. Though there is a hole in his movements which would allow it to happen.

April 1643 Montrose meets the Queen at York
June 1643 Montrose in Aberdeen in a Royalist plot
End June 1643 Montrose rides south to the King
Mid August 1643 Montrose reaches the King, but is sent away on advice from Hamilton
Late October 1643 Rupert fortifies Towcester
Jan 28 1644 Montrose signs agreement to raise Royalist troops in Scotland
Feb 1 1644 Montrose commissioned as Lieutenant General in Scotland
March 15 1644 Montrose reaches Durham
April 7 1644 Montrose enters Scotland
April 15 1644 Montrose occupies Dumfries for the King, before abandoning it at the end of the month
July 4 1644 Montrose and Rupert are together after Marston Moor. Montrose heads north to Scotland
August 4 1644 Montrose raises the royal standard at Blair Athol



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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Tod » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:10 pm

Towcester is only 20 minutes from me so I'm going to see if they have any records or a history society.
If my estimations are correct it would have been December 1643 - January 1644. It seems the dates fit.



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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Andy R » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:08 pm

Merlon. wrote:Montrose was Royalist from the start, but I was not aware he was at Towcester. Though there is a hole in his movements which would allow it to happen.


Did he sign the Covenant in 1638 and fight the Royal army in the Bishops War?

Woefully ignorant here as I am more up to date with 1644 on, and I keep meaning to read up on the Glencairn uprising after the 3rd war.


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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Merlon. » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:25 am

As usual its compliucated, a potted history of what happens would be as follows:-

brassed off by Charles in 1636, though Hamilton probably involved.
sits on the fence through 1637 till November when he attends an opposition meeting.
1638 gathers signatures for the National Covenant, not regarded as a mover and shaker by Hamilton.
1639 gets sidelined sent to the North East to counter rising by Huntly, starts to get less motivated by Covenanters.
The June 1640 Scots Parliament indicates the Covenanters have gone further that he is comfortable with. Also Argyll is stealing the limelight.
Signs the Cumbernauld Bond, binds the signatories to uphold Covenant against ‘the particular and indirect practickings of a few’ meaning Argyll and his cronies.
His regiment leads the assault over the Tweed, but the Cumbernauld Bond becomes public knowledge and Montrose is denouced.
Decides to work in secret with Charles, gets found out and imprisoned in Edinburgh Castle in June 1641 released in November.
Excluded from any form of influence in the Covenanters, unable to limit them, decides to create a Royalist opposition in Scotland, which fails, he moves into England. Finally ending up with a commission from Charles in early 1644



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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Andy R » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:05 am

Ta very much, most enlightening :thumbup:


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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Tod » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:34 am

If I recall he was the first to sign the Covenant at St Giles church yard.



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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Merlon. » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:11 pm

Out of interest, what information do you have that indicates Rupert and Montrose were together at Towcester?



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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Tod » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:04 am

I was told by a local chap, his family have lived around here for hundreds of years. It just came up in conversation. He knows pretty well nothing about the CW so it seemed odd that he knew about a Scot called Montrose who was with Prince Rupert in Towcester.
Now that the dates fit it makes it more likely so I'll look into it further. I have a couple of books on Montrose that I've never read so maybe there is some thing in one of them.



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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Strafford » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:27 am

John Buchan wrote a book called 'Montrose'. It's worth getting hold of. Rupert was advising the King with one thing and Montrose, another.

When you say that Montrose was for the King from the start, you are wrong. Montrose fought with the Scots in the first conflict following Jenny Geddes picking up her stool (a wooden one) and hurling it at the head of a bishop trying to read from the book of common prayer. Montrose thought that the first thrashing the King recieved would bring him to his senses. Unfortunately the King never came to his senses except for a few minutes spent with Archbishop Juxon, waiting to have his head chopped off.
Montrose then fought for the King against the Scottish Presbyterians because, like so many other true martyrs of the Civil War, he could not see the King destroyed. Thomas Wentworth, the first Earl of Strafford was the first such Martyr. Convicted and beheaded under and Act of Attainder which was repealed in 1660/1661.

I must say that I don't recall Rupert and Montrose meeting up after Marston moor but I will check it out.

Thing about Montrose is that if you showed a true life film of his exploits against the film Braveheart, people would come away saying that the Montrose film was a 'bit far fetched'. A truly amazing man who ended up with various limbs nailed to city gates across Scotland. His head in on a spike on the Toll Booth (i think) and, because he refused to bow to the Presbyterian edicts before his execution, the torso in a common pit.



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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Strafford » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:12 am

Yep! They did meet up after Marston Moor but Rupert had conned Newcastle into the Battle, saying he had written orders from the King which he did not show to Newcastle. General King was in the meeting with Rupert and Newcastle and advised Newcastle to stand back and let the Scots and the Parliament fall out amongst themselves. King and Rupert had a history. In the Palatinate War, Rupert had done his usual 'tally ho!' and got himself trapped. King knew that it would cost him too many men to rescue Rupert and Rupert could pay for his own folly. Rupert saw that as cowardice even though he had a reasonably comfortable imprisonment with his dog 'Boy' and a bit of regal 'totty' in the offing.
After that, the relations were a bit strained. Henrietta Maria 'took against' Montrose and backed Rupert in his ideas, forcing the King to abandon his loyal Scottish Ally for a 'right Royal Plonker.'. Charles II also abandoned Montrose, which led to his execution. Like Father like Son.
I still haven't been able to find any other mention of Montrose and Rupert acting together.



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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Strafford » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:12 am

I've been through two Biographies. Rupert and Montrose. They met twice. once in Oxford and once in an unnamed place after Marston Moor. Montrose had hoped to get Cavalry from Rupert to go back into Scotland after Marston Moor, but ended up having to give Rupert six to eight hundred of his Infantry.
The Oxford meeting was very brief. Rupert was there for one reason and had his opinion quoshed by Henrietta Maria and Montrose was there to warn the King of negotiations between the Scots and Parliament. The Duke of Hamilton (also Earl of Cambridge) managed to convince the King that Montrose was Scaremongering. Shortly the Scots crossed the Border to fight with the Parliament troops.

King Charles the First was a man who constanty ignored good advice and many of the people who were able to give good advice paid for his and his Wife's stupidity with their lives. People try to resurrect him as a 'Martyr' but from the age of sixteen with daft campaigns and ill thought policies, he cost an innumerable amount of lives. He was also cruelly mean. Sir John Eliot died in prison for refusing to pay Ship Money. Charles refused the family the ability to remove the body and bury it properly, instead it was buried in the prison's common pit.
Charles oversaw Forced Loans, Forced Knighthoods and Monopolies which ruined entire industries. It became impossible in England to buy decent soap.
These funds were extracted to avoid him calling Parliaments because Parliaments wanted a say in the spending of the 'Public Purse'. Whenever Charles had money or property, he felt it necessary to give it to favorites. Thomas Wentworth, Earl of Strafford use to call the King's hanger onners 'Court Vermin'. Wentworth managed for a whilr to make Ireland a contributor to the Public Purse but Charles just gave it to his pals. Was that the ,king of man that Wentworth and Montrose should have died for?
Give me CRomwell any day... Warts and all.



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Re: Towcester and Montrose in the civil war

Postby Strafford » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:25 am

There is no way that Montrose 'sat on the fence'. Once he saw that the Covenanters were heading towards the overthrow of subjugation of the king, he knew he had to fight them. The Covenanter started out 'good' but by the time Cromwell demolished the Presbyterian 'Taliban' in 1650, Montrose had been killed and religion was being used to take property from and do harm to anyone who fell foul of the Ruling Clergy and Carrion Crows like Campbell of Argyll. Montrose supported 2 kings who had no right to his support. In truth, they weren't fit to clean Montrose's boots.

That is my 'unbiased' opinion :wink:




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