Early Tudor jack of plates?

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Foxe
Post Centurion
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Defending Devon from French invasion
Contact:

Early Tudor jack of plates?

Postby Foxe » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:33 pm

Can anyone help with info and/or images of early jacks of plates? Pre-1520ish?


...and further this Informant saith not.

Foxe

'Don't be fooled by his general air of living in a skip'

http://www.etfox.co.uk

Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4234
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Early Tudor jack of plates?

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:41 pm

I will ask my rocking horse poo maker....

There are bits about but jacks of plates /privvy coats etc seem to start a bit later. They are still into brigs then. There are pictorial depictions that could be interpreted as coats of plates and plenty of written refs but existing remains don't spring to mind. Well certainly not whole examples, there are fragments about.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

User avatar
Foxe
Post Centurion
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Defending Devon from French invasion
Contact:

Re: Early Tudor jack of plates?

Postby Foxe » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:44 am

Thanks Griff,

There are several privy coats in the 1522 Military Survey returns, but I've not come across references to them earlier (to be fair, I haven't been looking much earlier...)

I will now expand my query: can anyone help with images and/or info about jacks of plates from the first half of the 16th century?

(Background to the question: like most people who have done some Elizabethan military portrayal I had the plates cut for a jack and then never got around to making it, and like most people in the same situation, I now have several hundred plates in my shed. I was originally thinking about making it up for Flodden if the evidence supported it, but now I'm moving house to within a hundred yards of where the Prayer Book rebels made their final stand so I'm thinking about 1549 instead.)


...and further this Informant saith not.

Foxe

'Don't be fooled by his general air of living in a skip'

http://www.etfox.co.uk

Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4234
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Early Tudor jack of plates?

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:04 am

Their is a muster roll of, if memory serves, 1542 in the 'Cater Museum' (actually a badly laid out festering and fossilised private collection) in Billericay which may have some written stuff in it, but nothing physical. I like it as it has the great entry where 3 Smith brothers are listed as having 'one harness between them'. I should really try and get in and take a decent pic of it, its never been properly transcribed to my knowledge. Like everything else its been firmly nailed into a case and its the other side of the country to me now.

There are garments in the Beachamp pageant that are not jacks, not brigs but something. They look to have stiff longitudinal divisions that could contain steel, horn etc. They could be 'scottish jacks', who knows? The jury is out and we'll never probably know, but its a good source to look at what might be privvy coat things and have a jolly good head scratching session. Personally, get a cheap mail shirt and sew a cover on it and sell the coat plates as armoured beer mats for tough neighbourhoods. :-)


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

User avatar
Foxe
Post Centurion
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Defending Devon from French invasion
Contact:

Re: Early Tudor jack of plates?

Postby Foxe » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:20 am

LOL, 'like' etc.

It's not that I need the armour - I have a lovely 16thC cuirass, it's that I want to use the plates.

You have now got me thinking about a mail-lined privy coat though - is that how you reckon they were made, and are there any examples I might look at?


...and further this Informant saith not.

Foxe

'Don't be fooled by his general air of living in a skip'

http://www.etfox.co.uk

User avatar
Phil the Grips
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Auld Reekie- capital village o' Jockland
Contact:

Re: Early Tudor jack of plates?

Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:27 am

My thought on the privy coat is similar- a doublet/coat with the mail laid between the lining and facing.

RA Leeds has a privy coat in the Self Defence section but I think it's plated one rather than a mail lined example.

Edit: It's both plate and mail-
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b197/ ... andine.jpg


--Angels also carry weapons--
http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/

Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4234
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Early Tudor jack of plates?

Postby Mark Griffin » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:49 pm

Thats more a brigandine with mail additions i think. I.e its meant to look more military than civilian. My idea of privy is a bit more secretive, privvy meaning private or hidden.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.


Mark Griffin
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 4234
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: Wales. Only just!
Contact:

Re: Early Tudor jack of plates?

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:33 am

thanks for the reminder Graham. There are a couple in Swiss museums that show signs of the plates being from reused harnesses too., plus a few smaller items that may have been cut from old breastplates.

My most sobering anecdote about the state of armour after it falls out of use is the town wall tower excavations in southampton. One had a compressed layer of plates rusted beyond identification about 3" deep!


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

Langley
Post Centurion
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:36 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: Early Tudor jack of plates?

Postby Langley » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:12 pm

When the attempt to murder Lorenzo di Medici happened in the Duomo in Florence in 1478 Lorenzo escaped because the assailant touched his shoulder possibly to check if he was wearing disguised armour. (That is how the story is told in Florence). He reacted fast and escaped. His unlucky brother Giuliano however died from blows to the head delivered when the host was raised and he was looking up. That suggests to me that hew was wearing very well disguised armour so perhaps studying the illustrations of their clothing would be helpful. http://tippygolden.wordpress.com/giuliano-de-medici/ has some useful pictures.



User avatar
Phil the Grips
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Auld Reekie- capital village o' Jockland
Contact:

Re: Early Tudor jack of plates?

Postby Phil the Grips » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:23 pm

C17th duelling treatises still remind the reader to check for concealed armour under an opponent's clothes before commencing- suggesting that the stuff was very fine and easily obscured.


--Angels also carry weapons--
http://www.blackboarswordsmanship.co.uk/


Return to “1485-1603”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest