Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

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nick19thind
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Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby nick19thind » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:13 pm

Having written three theses on the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries (not to mention an extensive collection of essays) i'm considering an early-modern impression in a couple of years' time in addition to my ACW and Victorian re-enactment. My main area of interest is religion, having researched the Marian persecutions, Elizabethan Reformation, Henry's Break with Rome, early Protestantism, witchcraft and the Puritan iconoclasm of the Civil War. Additionally i know a bit about crime and punishment (including the "coney-catchers" and the exploits of vagabonds like Nicholas Jennings), military and maritime history (especially the Armada), Anglo-French relations (Henry meeting Francis at the Field of Cloth of Gold and Elizabeth forming an alliance with the French and Scots against Spain), Gunpowder Plot, gender roles, processions (the least important individuals went first), duelling, heraldry, early modern attitudes to death, the Reformation of Manners (centred around efforts by the aristocracy to regulate their bodily functions, thus setting themselves apart from the poor), and elite attitudes to the crowd (feared as an unpredictable "many-headed monster") I live in Hertfordshire, can speak French and German, have a very basic understanding of Classical history (and a lot of interest in the biblical-era middle east), enjoy calligraphy, am 6'6, and used to be a skilled fencer. I have visited Kentwell's Tudor days several times in the past (as a spectator) and was wondering which groups attend this event?
Last edited by nick19thind on Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby mally ley » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:09 pm

The events at Kentwell are organised by the owner.
While people who belong to lots of different groups take part, individuals (and families) apply to the owner to take part.
The process starts in Jan/Feb. There is an open day for potential participants in March, then another in May before the main event in Jun/Jul. People who take part in the main event are then able to take part in any events up to the main event the next year.
I'm afraid you are too late to apply to take part this year, but there's always next year!
http://www.kentwell.co.uk/Re-Creations/Tudor/LiveAsATudor



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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby John Waller » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:16 am

If you want to venture into the C17th have a look at The GAS company http://gentryalliedskills.org.uk/cms/ Might be just the thing for you.


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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:39 pm

You have several choices for Tudors


Come to Kentwell as a participant, sadly you have missed the application system for this year.

Or google these groups

Melford hys Players
Hungerford Household
Tudor Group

However if you are interested in religion I have several Tudor and Jacobean facsimile texts for sale.


Will/Dave, the Jolly Box Man and Barber Surgeon

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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby nick19thind » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:18 pm

Dave, those religious texts sound interesting. Are they copies of originals?

Costume-wise, what types of doublet and breeches were worn by the middling-sort and gentry from the 1550s-1640s? Would i have to buy several costumes or were there certain styles that remained in use throughout the period ( i remember reading somewhere that c17 Puritan clothing was several years behind current fashions)? How much would they cost and who makes the best stuff?


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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:53 pm

nick19thind wrote:Dave, those religious texts sound interesting. Are they copies of originals?

Costume-wise, what types of doublet and breeches were worn by the middling-sort and gentry from the 1550s-1640s? Would i have to buy several costumes or were there certain styles that remained in use throughout the period ( i remember reading somewhere that c17 Puritan clothing was several years behind current fashions)? How much would they cost and who makes the best stuff?


The books are facsimiles of 16th and 17th texts printed on machine made laid paper, so they pass muster when rebound. They are mostly part of the English Experience Series and can be quite expensive if bought online.

On the other hand the texts are all on EEBO if you can find a library that will let you use it - the BL or some Universities.

Costume etc - how high is a piece of string or how long is the sky!! Only you can decide.

I suspect that costumiers are busy with orders for this Summer but if you want some basic clothing you should try Sally Pointer who sells "off the peg".

If you go to Kentwell this Summer and go to "the Hare" or "the Swan" in Melford in the evening you will find many Kentwellies to talk to. They can answer all of your questions.


Will/Dave, the Jolly Box Man and Barber Surgeon



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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby nick19thind » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:08 pm

Dave, i don't know much about costumes so i'll need the advice of other re-enactors. I'm looking for something reasonably authentic but not too expensive. Do any of your religious texts cover the Henrican, Marian or Elizabethan persecutions of Catholics and Protestants?


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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby guthrie » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:28 pm

nick19thind wrote:Dave, those religious texts sound interesting. Are they copies of originals?

Costume-wise, what types of doublet and breeches were worn by the middling-sort and gentry from the 1550s-1640s? Would i have to buy several costumes or were there certain styles that remained in use throughout the period ( i remember reading somewhere that c17 Puritan clothing was several years behind current fashions)? How much would they cost and who makes the best stuff?

I am not an expert, but think you'd need at least 3 costumes to cover that period of 90 years. Have you seen "The Tudor Tailor"? It has information about costumes for the 16th century.



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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby nick19thind » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:14 am

According to the Tudor Tailor this suit was in use from the 1560s-1620s. Is this correct, and if so what classes would have worn it?
http://www.tudortailor.com/tdjvh.htm


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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby Merlon. » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:34 am

"The cut and construction of clothes for men and women c1560-1620" is the name of a book by Janet Arnold which is a definative work on surving costume of the period. It does not refer to dates for the clothing. shown
The picture shown looks like 1580s venetians (a type of breeches) and 1560s livery coat.
Significant and regular changes in breeches, coats, doublets footwear, gowns, and head gear occur over the period 1550s to 1640s you neeed a minimum of four sets, possibly six of costume. Even then you are stretching the limits of credibilty Puritan clothing might be a little more restrained than others, but does not lag years behind the fashion.. The "founding fathers look" is best left to a Thanks Giving Day party...
Last edited by Merlon. on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby Nigel » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:22 am

nick19thind wrote:Dave, those religious texts sound interesting. Are they copies of originals?

Costume-wise, what types of doublet and breeches were worn by the middling-sort and gentry from the 1550s-1640s? Would i have to buy several costumes or were there certain styles that remained in use throughout the period ( i remember reading somewhere that c17 Puritan clothing was several years behind current fashions)? How much would they cost and who makes the best stuff?


right THINK how much has clothign changed over the last 20 years then apply it to what Paul says as he is bang on although the number of outfits may be stretching things a bit
AND AS A WRNIGN THEY WONT BE CHEAP


There’s a country in Europe where they treat their ex soldiers with pride no waits for medical treatment after injuries received during service, no amensia from the government. Cant for the life of me recall where it is but I know exactly where it is not.

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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby guthrie » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:32 am

nick19thind wrote:According to the Tudor Tailor this suit was in use from the 1560s-1620s. Is this correct, and if so what classes would have worn it?
http://www.tudortailor.com/tdjvh.htm

I don't see how you are getting that wide a range of dates. One of the sources is a book which apparently has examples of clothing covering that range, but I wouldn't have thought that same set would have covered all that time. Looking at the Tudor Tailor example illustrations, if you are going for gentry then you could use that set of patterns for the last 40 years of the 16th century, but you'd have to make various different parts, for example ruffs grow and grow during that time so you'd need different shirts. Then the 1640's is a different time period altogether. Oh, and changes in fashionable hat shapes occur as well.
The more middling sort, i.e. tradesmen, skilled craftsmen, wore less complicated clothing, but there are differences between the 1560's and 1600, in terms of hats, shape and size of doublet and jerkin and length and type of hose.



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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby Lord High Everything Esle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:35 pm

nick19thind wrote:According to the Tudor Tailor this suit was in use from the 1560s-1620s. Is this correct, and if so what classes would have worn it?
http://www.tudortailor.com/tdjvh.htm


As a rule of thumb you might be able to get away with one set of clothes!!

Be posh in the early 16thC, in the middle, what was posh then is still being worn by the middling sort and by the end of the century, after rolling in the mud, you would be adequately dressed for a husbandman.

There are too many permutation and combinations to say clearly what you need. You might be able to get away with three main outfits with a change of accessories (hat, coif, shoes, cloak, cod piece etc). However if you change status in that time you might have 3x3 sets!!

Of course thats only for the 16thC

However if you are a clergyman and like wearing frocks you might get away with two, pre and post reformation depending on your religeous preferences.


Will/Dave, the Jolly Box Man and Barber Surgeon



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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby mally ley » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:59 pm

If you read the TT page more closely, it says those outer garments would do an ordinary man for later part of C16th, and that the garments are based on some of the examples in Janet Arnold's book 1560 - 1620. NOT that the garments will cover all those years.

Fashions lower down the social scale do not change as fast as they do today, and new styles may take 10+ years to percolate out from London to sleep rural backwaters, but whatever social class you are going to portray, you can not expect to get away with anything less than 3 outfits. Even in deepest darkest Mummersetshire, something based on up to the minute fashions for one year is going to look seriously dated if you move on 20-25 years.



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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby Sophia » Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:15 pm

Another important consideration is the cloth which the garment s are made of. Downgrading clothes because you are out of fashion is a risky business because of the ability of different social groups to afford different types of cloth.


aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby nick19thind » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:51 pm

Thanks for the responses. :) If i were to restrict my impression to the Elizabethan era (1560-1600), what types of clothing would be fashionable for a young gentleman or middling-sort man? As i said before, i know little about fashion (aside from headgear changing from flat caps to tall hats and ruffs growing in size until the 1600s when they were replaced with large turn-down collars)


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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby Dathi » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:24 am

I'd seriously skip a young gentleman for that length of time. You're looking at at least 4 completly different suits to cover 40 years of not too fashionable young gentleman. Double that if you want to remain fashionable every step of the way........


Try this picture for 1569 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... c_1569.png

Images of Ireland from 1581 are good for a source as you can see a clear difference in Gentry and common soldiers dress

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... f_Irelande

The Funerary Procession of Sir Philip Sidney at http://wiki.umd.edu/psidney/index.php?title=Engravings is good for Londoners of the late 1580's

Tudor & Elizabeth portraits at http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/ does a good selection of paintings in dated groups.



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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby nick19thind » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:25 am

Thanks everyone. I'm going to see Hungerford Household in Ware this weekend. It will be great meeting some of the people on here face-to-face


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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby Grymm » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:17 pm

Tudor Group are t'wasps nipples when it comes to Tudorbeathan stuff. They're playing in Haddon Hall 22nd September.


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Re: Elizabethan or Jacobean groups

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:33 pm

For social and domestic late 16th/early 17th portrayals I heartily suggest three societies:

The Tudor Group
The Tudor Group
The Tudor Group


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.


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