How to tell who is a Knight.

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Simon_Diment
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Post by Simon_Diment »

lidimy Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's alright, I'm not *that* interested in fighting! But I wouldn't mind being an archer one day. I don't think my arms are strong enough though! But I am starting archery in September hopefully. Wootles. (And seeing as I have 'fodder' for my arrows... > )


Lidi, it's all in the back muscles not the arms - I'm 5ft 4in and 9.5 stone yet I can draw and shoot 90lbs quite comfortably for hours, there's been an awful lot of practice along the line of course. In other words you don't have to be a muscle-bound lummoxe to do it.

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Post by Nigel »

guthrie wrote:
Zachos wrote:If someone can pick you up and throw you, then be respectful. Thats my rule.

Don't you mean "If someone can order a dozen men to pick me up and throw me around, then be respectful"?


A mere dozen I suppose I could ask a comapny commander to do it then :D

As for chivlary well there is one simple rule rules we dont ahve those
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Post by lidimy »

shiny mail shirt?


galvanised!! That's baaaaad!! :twisted:

Well anyway. I don't have a very strong back either... I don't think.... I guess it might be after X years of carrying around school textbooks!




I do insist upon chivalry. One of the redeeming features of the past for me :D Or maybe I'm just fed up of irreverent yr 7 boys bashing past me to get through the door then letting it bang shut in my face? :evil: Any boy who holds a door open for me gets major brownie points! :D

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Post by Biro »

lidimy wrote:
shiny mail shirt?

I do insist upon chivalry. One of the redeeming features of the past for me :D Or maybe I'm just fed up of irreverent yr 7 boys bashing past me to get through the door then letting it bang shut in my face? :evil: Any boy who holds a door open for me gets major brownie points! :D
Lidi :D


I'm more for equal rights.. everyone should have the right to get doors shut in their face! :lol:

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Post by Phil the Grips »

lidimy wrote:I do insist upon chivalry.

Please don't confuse Chivalry with Courtly Love and Romance- one of my pet niggles.

Chivalry is when men can hit each other on equal terms in a martial context.

Romance is when boys fancy you and do stupid things to get your attention.

Courtly Love is fancying people you can't have and moping about because if it (to put it allvery simply).
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Post by Nigel »

Ah so thats what chivalry is

personally I just use a gun or 20 or so heavily armed chaps
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Post by WorkMonkey »

PaulMurphy wrote:Ignore the teenage testosterone, and give it a go if you are interested.


Whatttttttttttttttttttttttt!

Wayland2002 wrote:
Thats why one's a man at arms and the other is Saxon "arrow fodder".


Whattttttttttttttttttttttt

Zachos wrote:WM isn't gonna be too pleased with being called a teenager.


Whattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt *explodes*
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Post by Phil the Grips »

Nigel wrote:Ah so thats what chivalry is

personally I just use a gun or 20 or so heavily armed chaps

Yup- as long as your opponent is of equal or lesser social status then that is absolutlye fine.

Of course it aint rules- they are ideals, more sort of guidelines really... for people who read/write books instead of run real battles ;)
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Post by lidimy »

Ya ya ya I know. :D I always assumed that chivalrous means 'knightly' if you get my drift, doesn't the word come from the French 'cheval' because knights *generally* rode horses, back in the day? Or something like that?

Don't mean to niggle you.... :twisted:

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Post by Phil the Grips »

doesn't the word come from the French 'cheval' because knights *generally* rode horses, back in the day?
yup- all of the words for people of that status come from the relevant word for horse or rider- ritter, equites, caballero, cavalier etc etc- even samurai.

Don't mean to niggle you.... :twisted:

Nae bother
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Post by Zachos »

WorkMonkey wrote:
PaulMurphy wrote:Ignore the teenage testosterone, and give it a go if you are interested.


Whatttttttttttttttttttttttt!

Wayland2002 wrote:
Thats why one's a man at arms and the other is Saxon "arrow fodder".


Whattttttttttttttttttttttt

Zachos wrote:WM isn't gonna be too pleased with being called a teenager.


Whattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt *explodes*




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Post by Nigel »

chivalry she'll want democracy next
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Post by Colin Middleton »

lidimy wrote:
shiny mail shirt?


galvanised!! That's baaaaad!! :twisted:


Tinned, not galvanised. Apparently it was very popular and left you all bright and shiny.

I do insist upon chivalry. One of the redeeming features of the past for me :D Or maybe I'm just fed up of irreverent yr 7 boys bashing past me to get through the door then letting it bang shut in my face? :evil: Any boy who holds a door open for me gets major brownie points! :D

Lidi :D


That's not chivalry, that's just manners!


yup- all of the words for people of that status come from the relevant word for horse or rider- ritter, equites, caballero, cavalier etc etc- even samurai.


Apparently, except for knight which I hear comes from the Saxon word (Chnikt?) for servant.

Wasn't chivalry a Muslim idea imported via France?
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Post by guthrie »

Colin Middleton wrote:Wasn't chivalry a Muslim idea imported via France?

You might be thinking of the courtly love stuff that attached itself to chivalry. Certainly it's a great deal more complex and there ar emore bits to it than simply a muslim idea imported from France. Unfortunately I have not read enough to give you a definitive answer right now.

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Post by Colin Middleton »

Actually I'm being a bit facetious.

I think it's one of those ideas brought back from the early crusades and then brewed for a few hundres years round Europe and given a French name.

I think that's the way it went anyway...
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Post by m300572 »

And your "innocent looking Mop asking kiler questions" could be about the state of his manor - roughly speaking a medieval manor was an area of land large enough to support a fully equipped knight. Its not my period of interest particularly but I think there are lists from different bits of the medieval period (which went on for several hundred years) setting out what should be included. When the economy started to move from a feudal 'service' economy to a cash based one, manors and farms are often held of parts of a knights fee - the amount of cash it took to arm and support a fully equipped knight, so you get 15th century documents (for exampls) with land held 'of one sixteenth of a knights fee' which presumably bought one of the horses legs and the riders braies! :shock:

I think Playmobil knights are still designed on this principle! :lol:
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Post by Tuppence »

oh, and if you're talking back then, the assizes of arms set out fairsly strictly what armour and equipment you're allowed to have, based on your income.
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Post by Phil the Grips »

and through most of history- pretty much directly comparable to modern Community/Council/Poll tax where a slice of your property valuation goes back to the state, except spent directly on the defence budget by dint of the fact you aren't paying money but in arms and armour (though it varies throughout history as to whether you as a person had to actually turn and use the stuff or could pay someone else to do it or put it into a central armoury etc).

I theorise this to be the origin of the US 2nd Amendment to arm bears (an irony as many USians are so opposed to paying taxes) but that's waaaaaay off topic. :)
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Post by lidimy »

This is getting waaay too confusing for me :(
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Post by Zachos »

lidimy wrote:This is getting waaay too confusing for me :(


If in doubt say "so are you a knight or what?"

should work.

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Post by guthrie »

Yes it is confusing. Hence why we often end up using short, easy answers. COmmunicating things to the public can be tricky, and I think it generally better if they go away with 2 or 3 things that are generally correct, than a confused impression of the complexity of it all.

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Post by Dave B »

Zachos wrote:If in doubt say "so are you a knight or what?"

should work.

Z


No, Say 'are you a roundhead or a cavalier'

It makes knights change a funny colour.
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Post by Tuppence »

If in doubt say "so are you a knight or what?"

should work.


that works too

No, Say 'are you a roundhead or a cavalier'


whilst at a show surrounded by archetypal 13th C knights (you know, full mail, flowing surcotes, full face helmets, etc), and called 'the power of the normans', someone once walked past me, and said at me 'ah - but your lot never got to scotland did you? had to build a wall to keep us out'

then walked off before I had chance to say 'um, that was the ROMANS!!'
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Post by lidimy »

guthrie wrote:Yes it is confusing. Hence why we often end up using short, easy answers. COmmunicating things to the public can be tricky, and I think it generally better if they go away with 2 or 3 things that are generally correct, than a confused impression of the complexity of it all.


Hmm.. in which case, can we condense down the copious amounts of answers here into those 2 or 3 crucial points? Because at the minute I am definitely in the latter group! Didn't we decide that 'clearly displayed heraldry' was a fairly good point?

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Post by Phil the Grips »

Nope cos that only applies for a small period of timeframe that "knight" covers.

In essence it comes down to land as that it how wealth was created at the time-

Some had the land by inheritance and so were expected to provide arms, armour and civil service duties for their immediate boss who could take the lands away from them if they disagreed to do so.

Others had the arms and armour (from inheritance or mortgage or saving up or luck) so could then take the land by invasion to create wealth.

Some couldn't be bothered with all the arms and armour so bought the stuff and paid others to do it for them.

Later on "knight" became a social rank that could be conferred for good service without being tied to land- this then developed into the modern Honours list-which explains Sir Elton John!

A title could also be tied to the land so,by default the person becomes a knight by simply buying the land (a friend of mine is a Baron simply because of the house he bought, for example. Whoever buys the house from him will then become the next baron.)

So- the very short answer is

In historical terms- you were a knight if you chose to afford to be.
In reenactment terms- you are a knight if you choose to afford to be :)
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Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

Which has some strange cultural connotations. For instance in most of Europe wealth was measured in land and you had to stand ready to defend that land, with arms if need be, thus through most of Europe it was important for men to be men, sleek, trim and ready for action. In Italy though feudalisim never took off, at least not in the north. Their the wealth lay in cities and with the merchants and craftsmen who ran them and made their money. They didn't want to waste time learning knightly skills that meant they weren't at home making money, they paid others to do it for them. because they didn't neen to stay in fighting shape it became, if not fashionable, then somewhat desirable to have a bit of extra weight to carry. (The same thing holds true in Africa and Asia even today.) You see if you had the readies then you could afford to have some one else fight for you and you could afford to eat BIG, so a paunch equated with richness. Some of the short doublets that became popular in Italy in the 15th century were even intended to create an artifical beer belly just in case you were in fact too poor to develop the real thing!
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Post by Marcus Woodhouse »

Not that I have had any problem with it :oops: .
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Post by Zachos »

Replying to your own post surely marks you as a man who is very rich, in spare time at least.
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Post by sisterwulfe69* »

Apparently, except for knight which I hear comes from the Saxon word (Chnikt?) for servant.

spelt cnight
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Post by sisterwulfe69* »

Apparently, except for knight which I hear comes from the Saxon word (Chnikt?) for servant.


spelt cnight
I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more Toto

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