info needed for 14th Cent pavise

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Brian la Zouche
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info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Brian la Zouche » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:22 am

Having obtained a crosbow this year, it prompted me to think of starting a new project, = a pavise, after doing countless hours of web searching I have so far come across 2 pics of 14th cent surviving pavises both look slightly curved with no center gully, as all the 15th cent ones seem to have, and the same goes for actuall period illustrations, where I have found one from the 14th cent, this also looks slighly curved and again no centre gully as seen on later period ones,

I guess I'm looking at a basic xbow man fighting for the french, (Genoese etc ) and I did wonder if a simple plank construction held together by two cross planks would be authentic ?, as if so, thats real easy :-) the 15th cent ones I have seen details of, all have great artwork on them and the centre gullys, but I do wonder if this was also common a 100 years before,, the 14th cent one I have seen did have a wheel painted on it but it was no where near as decrotive as the 15th c ones

however I dont want my skill level of construction or my own ideas to justify anything I end up making, so I'd like to throw this out to the team

I welcome any help, advice , thoughts, ideas

footnote,
I am not seeking a ''yes'' just so i can justify it, I am really trying to find out what they actually looked like for my period,,
it would be easy to nail 8 planks together, as it makes sense to me, BUT that doesnt make it historicaly correct, and if with all of my items, if they are not correct as far as anyone can know, then i dont have them, i'd sooner go without than introduce more ''i think they would'' crap into the hobby



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Postby Anthony of the MSS » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:15 pm

Not all 15thc ones have gullies. This appears to be a bit of a reenactorism.

There's a really good thread on myarmoury about pavaises, have a google



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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Brian la Zouche » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:19 pm

ty Anthony, yes that is one of the many sites i have checked out over the last week or so, although all those i saw were 15thc



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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby gregory23b » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:36 pm

Some have gutters, some don't. Some are coopered - the Burgundian pavise at the Delft Military Museum. for example.

Some of the gutters are round in section, some are square, some are simply the raised middle plank.

Some are elaborately painted, some are less so. Many are liveried though, as a lot of the surviving ones seem to come from town armouries.

The easiest form of pavise to make would be the three piece pavise; two side planks and the central piece. The sides are lapped and pegged or nailed over the edges of the middle plank. Hide glue, cloth or leather, gesso and paint. The middle plank is wider at the bottom and the beak is thought to be a separate piece that is pegged on prior to cloth or leather facing.

This type is not hard to make and if you use say a 3/4 inch thick lime wood will stop an arrow. it just takes time. The gesso and paint will last and take some considerable punishment.

If your painting is a bit ropey avoid doing the elaborate designs, many on the market are painted in a modern style and have modern medieval imagery. Keep it simple.


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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Brian la Zouche » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:55 am

ty Gregory, the 3 plank one sounds fairly easy to make, so i may try experimenting with that come the new year, i'll try planks, but i'm also guessing if plywood was used once covered it would look the part, the 'rounded' type of gully would probby too hard for wood working skills, but its always fun trying,
ty for advice :thumbup:



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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:30 pm

gregory23b wrote: many on the market are painted in a modern style and have modern medieval imagery. Keep it simple.


Can you elaborate on that a bit. I can think of 2 possible meanings for this which would winde you up enormously and I'm wondering which you're digging at.

Best wishes

Colin


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Brian la Zouche
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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Brian la Zouche » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:54 pm

yes Gregory, the 15th cent ones all seem to have very elaborate designs, however the few early ones i have been able to see are fairly plain. although i have not gone into detail as such on design/artwork, i am thinking of incorporating the colours of Carlo Grimaldi ( at Crecy ) . but other than that on plain background.. but to be honest i havent spent much thought on artwork as of yet



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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby gregory23b » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:04 am

Colin, politely put, many are simply painted in a modern way, the look and style, it is not about the pigments etc but the actual painting style, some of the ones I have seen for sale are not medieval in look, the quality of the painting is not the issue though.


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Honourius III
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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Honourius III » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:07 pm

I have recently made a 15c parvise with a chanel down the middle and covered it with canvas both inside and outside then painted it. I used 5 peaces of good quality of ply wood, two outer large peices (about 9” at top by 6” at botom) two set at a slight angle to make the chanel (about 1.5” x 2”) and one down the centre (about 6”) all the hight of the pavis. Then I glued and screwed the ply to two shaped frame pieces of wood, one at the bottom and one about a foot from the top. To make the frame bits I used 4”x1” timber cut and shaped so that it goes into the gutter and then out slopping back to give a slight curve to the pavis. Now to get to the difficult bit. When you stick the canvas to the wood (I used normal wood glue) the canvas contracts and makes the structure tight. The difficult bit is to guess how much its going to shrink. Lastly I covered the edges with leather and pinned that into place using tacks. If you want me to do a plan, cos this is difficult to underestand, contact me and leave your email address and I will send you one.

The other thing I noticed between the 14 & 15c pavise is that the earlier pavise often were painted with saints and things but the later pavis only had simbles on them.
Good luck



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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:17 pm

gregory23b wrote:Colin, politely put, many are simply painted in a modern way, the look and style, it is not about the pigments etc but the actual painting style, some of the ones I have seen for sale are not medieval in look, the quality of the painting is not the issue though.


Thanks for that. I wasn't certain if you ment that, or medieval style painting of something that they would never paint (or on something that they wouldn't paint that on) or something else entirely.


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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby gregory23b » Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:03 pm

Honorious that sounds more complicated than the originals to be honest. I have found that three pieces plus beak is ample, it also seems to be how many were made.

The canvas cover should be made from prewashed cloth to reduce shrinkage, secondly if you lay the back piece on then you can overlap the first over the edge. There should be no need for a leather edging.


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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Benedict » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:48 pm

Would there be any chance of pictures (speaking a thousand words)?

Much appreciated!



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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Thomas Hayman » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:56 pm

Here is one i made, it's almost pavise making season again soon so watch this space!

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 528&type=3


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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Phoenix Rising » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:37 pm

Brian - can't help much with the pavise, I'm afraid but I was wondering where you obtained your crossbow from? I'm just wondering as I'm thinking about getting one as a contrast to the longbow (to show the two differing types of archery and explain their advantages / disadvantages). Not really needing it for much in the way of actual shooting, but perhaps enough just for a demo?

Any help from you or anyone else would be appreciated, as price is (as always) an issue.



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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Brian la Zouche » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:51 am

Phoenix ..............
i picked up the xbow at the last ILHF, i dont recall the name of the two people trading, and this was on the floor along with a few other 2nd hand items. they did tell me who made the iron work and the stock but sorry i dont recall.

i also thought it would be good to show the public the diff between bows and xbows, although i have also found that it has given me an added interest for myself, as now as well as fletching arrows i am getting into fletching bolts too :) plus as well as this post says i'm looking to make/have a pavise

if it had not been so cheap i probby would not have brought it, but i am glad i did, as it has given me another line of interest which compliments my love of archery

as far as a pavise goes i'm still sort of 90% sure of the route i want to take, but untill i can actually get working on one, its still at planning stage :-D



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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Phoenix Rising » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:34 pm

Brian - Cheers for the info, hoping to follow your lead, sir! Just thought it would give a contrast and also an added part to what I do. Having had a quick look there do seem to be some fairly basic ones in the Knight Shop (basic, but might do for what I may want to do).

Hope all goes well with your Pavise, (once you can get to do it!) :)



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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Graham Field » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:34 pm

Hi

I have some pics on facebook that may be of use, here hopefully you will be able to see them? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151043000808568&set=a.10151026645678568.421782.692978567&type=3&theater

Also have a look at: Der mittelalterliche Reiterschild, unfortunately it is only in German and not afaik available in English , but may be of some use.

http://vk.com/album-6330594_126263282

Regards

Graham


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Brian la Zouche
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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Brian la Zouche » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:09 am

ty ..nice info, more to add to my collection :thumbup:



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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby gregory23b » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:34 pm

The thing to bear in mind is what defines a shield and what defines a pavise, it can be tricky as they can be one and the same, but when a 'pavise' becomes small and usable in one hand then it becomes a 'shield', if we accept the primary function of a pavise is to provide a mostly static body covering, ie a large shield that is not used for blocking. Some of those images fall in either camp, some are not pavises as we might generally understand them. It does raise the question do we actually know how the medievals defined a pavise? I know the word appears in late medieval English, but can't recall a definitive description as to their use other than as shields. Any ideas?


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Brian la Zouche
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Re: info needed for 14th Cent pavise

Postby Brian la Zouche » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:57 am

yes the one i intend to make is not one held while in combat, but more of a portable 'barricade'' moved and placed as required, my search on the net has come up with many listed as a pavise but shown being held like most people would imagine a shield to be.

i was ( and will still do ) itending to try and construct one as close as possiable to originals, but to get one that ''looks'' the part i may use plywood, as i'd cover this in linen it would hide the fact its one peice, i did look at buying a blank but cant bring myself to pay for a whole sheet when only requiring just over a quarter of the sheet, steam bending maybe a bit beyond my skill so will porobby kerf it, as it will not be used for any force/ impact, at the moment its an ongoing project, which more important/ urgent ones seemed to overide it, but its back at the top now :D




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