Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

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Shrop_Ad
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Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby Shrop_Ad » Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:06 pm

I've been looking for a bevor to add to a WOTR billman setup, as I want to protect my lower face in hectic WOTR bill lines.

Searching around, I've found an item online that would compliment my setup perfectly, but can find no historical evidence for it in effigies or paintings.
http://steel-mastery.com/en/plate-armou ... protection

With my limited knowledge, the best way I can describe it is a gorget with an extended mouth piece, as I can't find any example of a bevor which is attached like this either historically for WOTR period (or any other!) nor even available from other sellers.

Would anyone be able to advise as to if this is any real basis for this item, or point me in the direction of anywhere I could further my search? Much appreciated!
Last edited by Shrop_Ad on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.



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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby Charles13 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:59 pm

Hmmm - dont know! I'm not an expert but have done some research into armour for my own group - there is some overlap between bevours and gorgets. However most late 15th century bevours dont seem to wrap around the whole neck (anyone with better knowledge please feel free to correct - just going on what I've seen).

Generally consist of one plate which sits high on the chest (not two like the example in the picture), and then has another plate which comes up and curves around front of the neck and lower jaw. Quite often they have a falling lame and sometimes two. There are variants but thats the basic. Personally speaking unless you have nice posh armour I would go for something quite basic, 2 J's does a quite reasonable bevour for around £45 http://www.twojs.me.uk/Images/bevor1.jpg



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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:50 pm

I've done quite a bit of research into armour of the Middle Ages and I've never seen anything like that. The shoulders that he's wearing look a bit like the things in use in the 14th C (some were found at Wisby), but I've no idea about the gorgette thing. There are 13th/14thC things that look like a high, fixed collar, circling the neck (but they're one piece and don't have the 'points' or gorgette plates that this does). There are flat gorgette plates, without the bevour and there are large raised bevours, that only protect the front of the face.

I've also never seen a gorgette plate like this with the moving upper lame laid BELOW the bottom one. Looks like it could drive the upper plate onto your chest, making the lower plate a bit pointless.

I suspect that it's based on some historic example somewhere in Europe, but could well be miss-interpreted beyond recognition. The 2J's one is a better shape, or you could go back to the guy who made the rest of your armour for advice (you'll get something that matches then).

What kind of helmet are you wearing?


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby Phil the Grips » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:32 pm

The closest I've ever seen to armour like that from the historic record is an Almain Collar- fine if you're in the late C16th and light cavalry and even then they were far better made and more encompassing than that.

My understanding is that this sort of armour is a modernism developed to provide the minimum required cover for the throat and shoulders in modern full-contact tournaments when worn over a gambeson.


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby guthrie » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:28 pm

Phil the Grips wrote:The closest I've ever seen to armour like that from the historic record is an Almain Collar- fine if you're in the late C16th and light cavalry and even then they were far better made and more encompassing than that.

My understanding is that this sort of armour is a modernism developed to provide the minimum required cover for the throat and shoulders in modern full-contact tournaments when worn over a gambeson.

Maybe worn under? I don't see a method of attaching the front to your gambeson, and without that surely the nice pointy front top bit will ride up nicely into your nose if anyone does an upwards swing?



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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby Phil the Grips » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:33 pm

guthrie wrote:Maybe worn under? I don't see a method of attaching the front to your gambeson, and without that surely the nice pointy front top bit will ride up nicely into your nose if anyone does an upwards swing?

You may have just discovered why no-one invented it for real ;-)


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:05 pm

What a crock of sh**.


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby guthrie » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:19 pm

Having looked at my old Osprey on WotR, I can only say "Run away!"

Basically, look elsewhere.



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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby Zachos » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:00 pm

You won't find a good bevor that isn't custom made. You'll fins some that work, but nothing that works and is authentic. I've been wearing a maille standard instead of a bevor and it's worked for me, with only one minor mouth injury that could've been avoided if I had've paid more attention to what was going on. I do intend on getting one made, but as with all armour, if you buy one that isn't great, it may be more dangerous than not actually wearing one at all.


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:39 pm

I'll echo Zacho's call for a custom made bevor. My White Rose one has done an admirable job of protecting me from a few blows to the face, even with the open face sallet. They are a bit tricky to use in the bill line though, because you're trying to turn your head.

guthrie wrote:
Phil the Grips wrote:My understanding is that this sort of armour is a modernism developed to provide the minimum required cover for the throat and shoulders in modern full-contact tournaments when worn over a gambeson.

Maybe worn under? I don't see a method of attaching the front to your gambeson, and without that surely the nice pointy front top bit will ride up nicely into your nose if anyone does an upwards swing?

I doubt that they were worn under a jack, how would that wide a neck line work with the throat/collar of the jack? Also, any forward/downward blow is going to drive the gorgette plate into your chest. Makes far more sense for them to go over the top.


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:41 pm

You could try this one if you're after a bevor:

http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=31856


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion

Postby Charles13 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:00 pm

I would also recommend having one made - remember get it made to work with your helmet. I currently use a 2J's one and am lucky enough that it works with my off the peg sallet. It has stood up well and I dont have too many issues wearing it in a bill line. It has also saved me a hospital trip when my oppenant slipped and thrust a bill straight into my throat - dented the bevour but I was fine!

I think as with all armour buy the best you can afford and dont go trying to go posh (i.e full plate) as you dont need it and always looks rubbish unless you can afford good stuff.



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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby Shrop_Ad » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:56 pm

Thank you for the advice all, much appreciated, I'll be keeping well clear of this item and will look for a custom bevor (or one I can try for fitting before purchase) in the future instead! I did wonder how it was secured 'down', but I noticed many low-hanging gorget type armour pieces around and supposed I was missing something obvious. Now I'm pretty clued up to them being useless & probably dangerous!

Ideally I'd like a kettle helm, I quite like the pointed version but am still looking for one with dimensions such as the one in this great photo: (http://www.medieval-market.com/gallery/ ... c_0536.jpg) . Seen many online, but they either have no dimensions, or seem very small on the model's head. Looking at some WOTR fed group photos I noticed one or two of the same size in use, so am trying to identify where/who they source them from.

I've also been looking at some plate for the era and the years leading up to the WOTR. While I want to portray a lower class bill man and am trying to stay clear of most plate armour and stick with equipment better suited to my position, I'd just like to run this past people as a future purchase:

http://www.re-enactmentsupplies.co.uk/i ... uct_id=198

From what I can tell though, the tassets may not be in period/geolocation for the WOTR.
Last edited by Shrop_Ad on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby Colin Middleton » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:48 pm

That's based on on the the Churburg examples from the early 15th C. Personally I find the design to be pug-ugly, but that's just me.

Lookign closely at it, what are the rivits round the base of the tonlet (it's not a tasset, whatever the maker says)? They look like they could be embossed in to look pretty, rather than serving an actual function. Also, I would expect the waste to be more clearly defined. I'm a bit sceptical about holding it closed with a belt (like they show), that was a German thing, I'm sure that Italian armours (even then) used straps and buckles. My final concerns about it are that it's "In stock and ready for next day delivery" and only costs £200 (without the discount). That probably means that it's made on a one-size fits no-one basis and you're going to end up with it hanging off your shoulders and rattling around your middle, which isn't likley to be comfortable.

As a general rule, I would expect to pay AT LEAST £500 for the most simple and basic cuirass (that's breast and back with tonlet) to have it made strong enough and fitting you properly. You'll pay a lot more than that if you start looking at scaloping, fluting or other decorative characteristics. Obviously second hand items will be cheaper. You could get just the breast-plate for considerably less if you don't feel the need for the back protection.

Having said that, I'm a bit of an armour purist and I hate seeing this cheap and nasty stuff that you can buy off the shelf.


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby AndyandHelen » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:33 pm

So basically left with buy quick and repent at leisure or buy slow and don't?
I do have another possible solution for you and that is matuls. Now I know he had a certain rep in the past but I recently had an order from him , the type 5 gambeson and to be honest I can't remember when I have ever had anything so well fitted and made. Not only did I get a gambeson but also got a pair of hose which are notoriously a problem for us chaps. So what has all this to do with this thread I hear you ask? Well he does armour too. In fact to suit your billman portrayal he will sort you out with an Italian export breastplate and a dagged standard, add to this his new helmet with rondels OR a visored salet and you are laughing. He'll even knock a bit off for forge finish as opposed to full polished www.matuls.pl is the site. I'll possibly get round to doing some pics of the gambeson later this week or in the new year.
Oh by the way I ordered the gambeson and hose in October and it was in my hands one month later, now who else can do that tailored to your fit from scratch?



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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:55 pm

Armstreet one- H.O.S*

2j's example - Nasty. entry larp stuff or for people/groups who don't care. Haven't seen yours Charles so not picking on your advice!

That Cuirass C.O.S** Just wrong. Colin is right about it, its badly made, made up and the price screams disaster.

Kettle hat, looks ok ish. I think it looks big on the models head but why would you trust your good looks, health, basic motor functions and life to an off the peg item you can't try on before parting with the money?

Above all with bevors PAD AND LINE THEM!!! Or you will be injured by your own equipment.

I may, just may, be selling a few bevors in the new year. Seem to have 6 for some weird reason, couple of Vickers ones there to be passed on to worthwhile causes i think.

Yours lovingly.......

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** Crock of sh*t


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby Jimhood1975 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:00 pm

If you want good munitions armour you can't go far wrong with mark vickers at St George armoury. I have arms, legs and gauntlets and have had one of his bevoirs and they are all great. His munitions breastplate is £160 so you could have a breast plate and bevoir for under £250 and a great start to bill fighting.
Hope this helps and good luck.



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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Thu May 02, 2013 12:38 pm

I have used a Dressed to Kill one for years without any issue. I have had several shots bounce of it, once was whilst an opponent made eye contact and pool queued at my face, I leaned back (bloody sharpish!) and the bev took the hit leaving me unhurt.


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu May 02, 2013 12:48 pm

One good thing about Dressed to Kill armour is its extremely robust as Steve points out. Mark makes extremely sturdy kit that will stand up to the fiercest press.


http://www.griffinhistorical.com. A delicious decadent historical trifle. Thick performance jelly topped with lashings of imaginative creamy custard. You may also get a soggy event management sponge finger but it won't cost you hundreds and thousands.

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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby Tod » Fri May 03, 2013 12:29 pm

I've got bellows faced sallet from St Georges that I can't fault would recommend them or the new kid on the block is Adam Blockley he's made a few things for me and all have been good. He doesn't have aweb site but is on FB.



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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby Mark Griffin » Fri May 03, 2013 12:39 pm

once was whilst an opponent made eye contact and pool queued at my face


Either you need to be going to nicer pool halls or give up that job as primary school lunchtime playground assistant Steve!


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Re: Gorget/Bevor Confusion / Other Newbie Questions

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Fri May 03, 2013 2:51 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:
once was whilst an opponent made eye contact and pool queued at my face


Either you need to be going to nicer pool halls or give up that job as primary school lunchtime playground assistant Steve!


:lol:


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