Helmets

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Rookster
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Helmets

Postby Rookster » Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:19 pm

Can anyone lay to rest some discussions about what an archer would have worn as a helmet from circa 1350 to 1415 ? Kettlehelms seem the favourite but were sallets much later than this, particularly the tailed ones ?

Anyone feel confident to answer with any certainty ?

Thanks in anticipation.



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gregory23b
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Re: Helmets

Postby gregory23b » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:34 pm

65 years of changes in armour.

a big time frame.

Why do you think Kettle hats were the preferred helmet btw?


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Rookster
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Re: Helmets

Postby Rookster » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:28 pm

That was what I was advised by the historian in our group - you obviously have a different opinion - pray go on ....



Marcus Woodhouse
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Re: Helmets

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:47 pm

They do get seen in a fair few period illustrations Jorge. Doesn't mean they were the perfered choice though. More likely to be the easiest to obtain.


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Biro
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Re: Helmets

Postby Biro » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:21 am

Never done the shooty thing so honestly have no idea - but wouldn't the brim 'interfere' with the bowstring?



Normannis
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Re: Helmets

Postby Normannis » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:34 am

The kettlehat does seem to appear in sources from the Maciejowski onwards as one of the common lower-class helmets, alongside skulcap-type unadorned helmets- the main objection people seem to find is that it's ugly, and the precise design seems to change over time (into more of a sallet later). It's not a bad one for hedging your bets for a general era, though- a bit like a weld-ridge nasal for 1150-1250; there's enough stuff around to show it was always about.



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Biro
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Re: Helmets

Postby Biro » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:51 am

The 12c Lewis Chessmen are probably the earliest representation I've seen of what could be called a kettle hat.

Edit - and here's a pic:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/hi ... page=20942



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Graham Ashford
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Re: Helmets

Postby Graham Ashford » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:33 pm

Here's a small selection of manuscript miniatures from the manuscript miniatures DB. Some are quite large so I have given the links for them. All I would say is generally try to avoid the western pictures of the middle east as these are often 'exotic' and probably not very accurate as I understand it. However, you could wonder at the other pictures as well, after all the artist wasn't setting things on paper for our benefit (I suspect) after all I can draw a picture of a tank, but you'd be ill advised to use it as a blue print to start your own tank corps (they'd be too many turrets to start with ;) ).

Good luck.

Here's the database: http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/

Nice big drawing here: http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/ale ... ey-264/98/
and again here, kettle helms and bascinets with aventail: http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/la- ... pson/1289/
Image

Image

Image

Image

All the best

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medievalpirate
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Re: Helmets

Postby medievalpirate » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:37 pm

Having studied the image, and checked three extant examples, it can not be a Kettle. As it does not have a handle or spout..... :wink:


Sorry just being silly due to painful boredom....


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Colin Middleton
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Re: Helmets

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:45 pm

Rookster wrote:Can anyone lay to rest some discussions about what an archer would have worn as a helmet from circa 1350 to 1415 ? Kettlehelms seem the favourite but were sallets much later than this, particularly the tailed ones ?

Anyone feel confident to answer with any certainty ?

Thanks in anticipation.


I've heard a number of archers object to kettle helms for shooting because of interacting with the string.

Sallets aren't really in use by 1415, though I don't think that it's too much later before they make their FIRST appearances. They're more of a mid-late 15th C thing. Bacinettes are the 'standard' helmet for the 14th C and are definitely still in use by 1415. Their style and shape changes a bit during that period, especially the visor. I can recall manuscripts showing 'soldiers' wearing them, but I couldn't say for certain if they were archers or not.

Best wishes


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Charles13
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Re: Helmets

Postby Charles13 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:18 pm

I'm by no means an experst but for late 14th to early 15th I would suggest a basinet - either with or without a visor (visor styles change quite a lot), from illustrations of the period they seem a common choice for all class's.

Kettle hats are fine - but there is a lot of change in their contruction and style over the centuries - not sure which is good for your period!

Theres always the simple skull cap type of helmet - sorry I dont recall the 'proper' name - would have thought a good choice for potraying someone of a lower order.



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L Slawason
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Re: Helmets

Postby L Slawason » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:27 pm

This is more of a simple observation more than an answer to your question, but it could depend on the authentic style of shooting for the period as if you were to draw the bow to your ear or mouth, surely the brim of the kettle hat would get in the way? im not an archer so if what i said was silly then ignore me but its just a thought



Marcus Woodhouse
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Re: Helmets

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:03 pm

I have no problem wearing a kettle helm and drawing the string to my ear.


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Brian la Zouche
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Re: Helmets

Postby Brian la Zouche » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:28 am

the 1st kettle helm I brought when using a half compass re-enactment bow & shaft ( and not at full draw ) the string did not touch the edge of the helm, . yet when using a longer and heavy full compass bow at full draw it did,

although when looking around for a new kettle helm I did find the diameter of brims differed with some styles

in all honesty I have no idea as to if reenactment helms follow the same dimensions as historic ones, or they just ''look right''

with a cervelliere/skull cap, i found no problem at all,

I did obtain from torm a plain unvisored bassinet, and tho I have not actually tried this while shooting, my guess is I do not see this causing any problem



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Brian la Zouche
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Re: Helmets

Postby Brian la Zouche » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:42 am

[quote=" after all I can draw a picture of a tank, but you'd be ill advised to use it as a blue print to start your own tank corps (they'd be too many turrets to start with ;) ).

[/quote]
Sir, I hope you are not casting aspersions at my own design capability
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Baldrick
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Re: Helmets

Postby Baldrick » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:05 pm

Rookster,
In my opinion, I would suggest that you were correctly advised that a Kettle helm is, pretty much, a safe bet for general use, for all ranks, during that period.
If money isn`t an issue, then maybe a bassinet would suit your requirements better, but be prepared to pay for a good one.

:twisted:


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Ezykle
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Re: Helmets

Postby Ezykle » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:31 pm

I concur, a kettle hat would be worn but the ones being turned out at the moment are very wide brimmed (unless you have one made for you). A skull cap with aventail would be acceptable throughout the period. Personally I found a bashinet restricted my vision, but thats my own opinion. It depends also if your planning to skirmish? Later on as in early wotr's its a must on the open faced sallet.



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zauberdachs
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Re: Helmets

Postby zauberdachs » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:59 am

A simple skull cap has the benefit of being of use for almost all historical periods :)

To add to the above, I used to have no problems drawing to the ear with a hettle hat.


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