Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

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Ayliffe's Steve
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Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:20 pm

Does anyone have any references for hooks on the front of 15c gothic armour on the breastplate designed to attach a cloak to?


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:50 pm

Why on earth would you wear a cloak with harness?
Can you not get a perfectly good gown or gornecea?


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:57 pm

The only reason I can think of would be just to pose but I might be getting my terms wrong. A foot reaching garment that would come over the shoulders and hook onto two points at the front, I think he said the breastplate - I called it a cloak but it might be called a gown or something else.

Currently I wear a cassock over mine but I am not closed minded!


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:05 pm

There are a few effigies with cloaks (mantels?) worn over their harness.

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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:03 am

Any evidence of them being worn actually in combat?


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:18 pm

There are many excellent sources for cloak hooks on armour.

Game of thrones
Lord of the rings
Merlin
Legends of the Seeker

Etc


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Charles13 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:33 pm

As mentioned above there are some effigies with gowns over harness. However I suspect that these are ceramonial. I've not seen any images of people fighting wearing a gown, cloak or anything similar. Though I admit that I've not done an exhausive search! I would imagen that any flappy cloth type thing would be a hinderance in battle - likely to get snagged on weapons or other bits of your own harness.



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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Alan E » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:57 pm

Charles13 wrote:As mentioned above there are some effigies with gowns over harness. However I suspect that these are ceramonial. I've not seen any images of people fighting wearing a gown, cloak or anything similar. Though I admit that I've not done an exhausive search! I would imagen that any flappy cloth type thing would be a hinderance in battle - likely to get snagged on weapons or other bits of your own harness.

Sir John Chandos, Viscount of Saint-Sauveur in the Cotentin, Constable of Aquitaine, Seneschal of Poitou, KG [was] mortally wounded after a night skirmish at Lussac-les-Châteaux in Poitou. He became entangled in his robes after slipping on frost, and was stabbed in the face by a squire, James de St. Martin ... etc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Chandos
OK, it's Wikipedia the tale itself is from Froissart
https://faculty.nipissingu.ca/muhlberge ... andos2.htm
Froissart wrote:Sir John Chandos, who was a strong and bold knight, and cool in all his undertakings, had his banner advanced before him, surrounded by his men, with the scutcheon above his arms. He himself was dressed in a large robe which fell to the ground, blazoned with his arms on white sarcenet, argent, a pile gules; one on his breast, and the other on his back; so that he appeared resolved on some adventurous undertaking; and in this state, with sword in hand, he advanced on foot towards the enemy.

This morning there had been hoar-frost, which had made the ground slippery; so that as he marched he entangled his legs with his robe, which was of the longest, and made a stumble: during which time a squire, called James de St. Martin (a strong expert man), made a thrust at him with his lance, which hit him in the face, below the eye, between the nose and forehead


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:28 pm

And look at the long list of supers in the Incredibles who buy the farm because they wore cloaks.


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Mark Griffin » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:37 pm

re 'cloaks' on funerary monuments, worth checking that they are not mantles associated with belonging to a chivalric order and thus a necessary inclusion in the iconography of that order.

Certainly I've sat many times on a horse in the peeing rain wanting a cloak or similar and then when you get one you find out it will get caught on absolutely anything. Spurs especially when mounting/dismounting if you are not watching out.

I'll go with Mr Incredible on this one....


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Jason » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:46 am

When riding out for a long time in frosty winter conditions, a cloak over the top of it all does make one hell of a difference to the warmth. Not sure about cloak hooks, but i tied it to the breastplate strap so it would stay in place. It's hard to feel a cloak slipping off in full harness.



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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:48 am

Hmmm, that may be it. The fellow who was telling me about it mentioned hooks on the breastplate to attach the cloak to. I suppose that sitting on a horse in the cold would be a reason to have the cloak on in the first place.

I asked one of the groups history boffs and he found it highly unlikely due to practicallity, lack of supporting evidence and the fact that, apparently, cloaks generally do not fasten that way at that time.

It's a shame, I quite liked the idea.


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:57 am

I can't think of a single breastplate with evidence for anything for attaching anything other than other bits of vital armour equipment. There are a few pics that spring to mind with people riding with them on, none on foot. Given that the only bit of useful evidence that we have above (jolly useful it is too) causes the death of its wearer I'd think twice about wearing one....


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:38 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:I can't think of a single breastplate with evidence for anything for attaching anything other than other bits of vital armour equipment.


This was the main point made by my local boffin (tm). Also, the fact that it was (in his words) 'a stupid idea' kind of nailed it shut for me. However, I thought I would post on here just in case someone else had come across what the other guy had and knew more about it.


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Errent Knight » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:53 pm

I can't see any hooks on the armour, but he is definately wearing a cloak. Looks like a death trap to me though :$
Weikhard Frosch, 1375. Frankfurt, Germany..jpg


Not sure if this one is actually wearing armour. Despite the sword and shield, he seems to be in civvies.
Gottfried von Cappenberg Effigy from 1300.jpg


Either way, it is definately the exception rather than the rule.



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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Mark Griffin » Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:10 am

They both are, but neither seem to be attached to armour though, just chained or whatever across their neck fronts.


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby The_Kyle » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:32 am

The Bruges Garter Book shows all of them wearing cloaks over their armour too, however they're clearly just ordinary cloaks and in no way attached to the armour itself.



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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:41 am

They are anything but 'ordinary'. They are heraldic mantles, as they are all garter Knights and are depicted with the full regalia of the order. There is a clue in title....


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby The_Kyle » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:39 pm

And the difference between a mantle and a cloak?



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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:42 pm

The_Kyle wrote:And the difference between a mantle and a cloak?

The same as the difference between Primark and Gieves and Hawkes.


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:44 pm

I always take it that a mantle is the heraldic version. What specific differences there are I suppose you'd have to ask the College of Arms... But I bet the main difference is cost :o


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Re: Authenticity of cloak hooks on armour

Postby Errent Knight » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:48 pm

I may have misconstrued Kyle's post but I took it to mean that the manner in which the cloak/mantle was held in place was "usual" as opposed to the unusual/fantastical idea of hooks on armour. Rather than describing the garment itself.




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