I want to buy an armet ... I think

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Ayliffe's Steve
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I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:50 pm

Hello all,

I would like to get a 15c helmet for full contact fighting - I want it to cover my face as I would hate to get my blood all over my opponent's sword.

An armet seems ideal but I rarely see them on the field - anyone know why?
Can anyone recommend an armourer who makes good armets that can take full contact poundings?


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Tod » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:50 pm

I'd suggest St George's Armoury or ASH. Both have done fine work for me.



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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:57 pm

Armets are notoriously difficult to fight in when on foot. because the bottom of the helm is fully enclosed and moves with your head, there is no way to see down and the fact that you've normally got the visor closed restricts all your other vision too.

At least that's the rumor.

Other names worth considering are:
White Rose
Plessis


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:14 pm

Are they more difficult to fight in than any other closed face helmet, eg a pig face?


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Colin Middleton » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:16 pm

I don't know. Like I said, I'm working on rumor/reputation here.

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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby abaddon1974 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:02 am

I don't think that you see many because of the price, when I was looking at getting an armet to go with my kit the prices that were quoted were around three times the amount that a sallet and bevor cost me.



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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Phil the Grips » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:35 am

Armets belong in the "great for reality, rubbish for re-enactment" pile along with broadaxes, mailshirts and so on.

The heat build up, lack of vision and cost make them impractical for most modern uses- I had one mate save up to buy the armet of his dreams, wore it once and never again cos it turned re-enactment battles into a great big game of hide-and-seek-in-a-microwave which only stopped if he raised the visor, thus negating the protection he sought.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:42 am

Are they worse than pig faced bascinets?


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:48 pm

Yes, if you are portraying mid to late 15th century, because everyone will laugh at you for wearing such outdated armour.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:09 pm

Yes fair point but what I meant was to fight in. I know people who compete wearing pig faces so I have something to scale the armet against if I know whether it is better or worse


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Tod » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:01 pm

You'd have to check your period but what about a bellows face sallet. I just got one made for my 1513 kit.



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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Zachos » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:44 am

I think you don't tend to see them because in order to get one that fits properly and therefore works properly you need to spend more than most people want to pay. For full contact fighting they will work really well, if they are made really well, and with exchange visors you should be able to use the same helmet for all sorts of different things. The initial outlay is a lot, but a well made one will last you forever.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Tod » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:59 am

Mine was made by Mark Vickers and I think was some where between £600 and £800, I'd have to find the invoice to be sure. IMO worth every penny.



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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Colin Middleton » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:07 pm

Zachos, Tod,

Are we talking about Armets or Bellows Sallets here?


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Zachos » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:31 pm

I'm talking about an armet, although all helmets should fit very well to work properly.

*edit*

Although I do see a lot of bellows face sallets roaming about I'm not that sure of their provenance before about 1480, so their use may be restrictive somewhat.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:53 pm

I'm not sure about their provenance even that early, I'm also sceptical as to how common they were at all. Most of the belows visors that you see are on armets and close helms.

They're popular with re-enactors because they protect your whole face and I think that's led to their being used in artifically high numbers.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Zachos » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:12 pm

A very early version of the bellows face is known as the bosworth sallet, so I suppose I'm being generous to suggest it could be 1480.

I agree with you on why they are popular. They give beeter protection than a badly made sallet and bevor which is all most people see. Also I think there is still a tendency to look around at a fayre and buy whats there and what the man taking your money tells you will do, rather than researching yourself.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:03 pm

Yes.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Tod » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:11 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:Zachos, Tod,

Are we talking about Armets or Bellows Sallets here?

I was talking about my Bellows face sallet. Fits 1513 I'm not sure about earlier.



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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Mark Griffin » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:41 pm

Great bascinets...its the only way to achieve protection breatheability and everything else you want. Just a shame they are not a WOTR thing really.

And while I'm here, can I bury another annoying re-enactorism?

Its a HOUNSKULL bascinet. That's dog faced everyone. Hund - Hound. The English term "hounskull" possibly comes from the German term for the helmet, 'hundsgugel', meaning "hound's hood.

Pig faced was dreamt up by some Victorian idiot.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Ayliffe's Steve » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:33 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:Its a HOUNSKULL bascinet. That's dog faced everyone. Hund - Hound. The English term "hounskull" possibly comes from the German term for the helmet, 'hundsgugel', meaning "hound's hood.

Pig faced was dreamt up by some Victorian idiot.


They seem to be called pig faced pretty much universally though, regardless of the origin of the name. I can barely recall the last time i heard someone call them a hounskull.
When I talk to mops at events, naming conventions and historical misconceptions (often due to the Victorians) is one of the things I enjoy explaining.

So I have to confess to not feeling particularly guilty about calling those bascinets pig faced! 8-)

Although I am far more interested in the hitting people part of the hobby rather than the difficult bits.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Fox » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:10 am

Mark Griffin wrote:And while I'm here, can I bury another annoying re-enactorism?
....
Pig faced was dreamt up by some Victorian idiot.

So not a re-enactorism then?
A Victorian nomenclature, perhaps.

We [re-enactors, but also historians and the general public] often don't use words and classifications for items [particularly armour, but also costume and other everyday items] as they were used in their day.
The very specific modern catagorisation used for "sallet" is an example.

In general, does this matter? Is it important to be precious about it?



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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Mark Griffin » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:21 am

touche.

maybe its a reenactorism to perpetutate the term then. I no longer here the ghastly 'blood groove' explanation for fullers from re-enactors but I do hear them correcting mops sometimes. However regarding pig-faced I'm not sure if it would be a mop thing to say so best practice is to call it by a more accurate term.

I always aim for 1st best, not 2nd best with a follow up explanation or correction. In the same bracket falls cervelliere. Its not something a mop would know or even care about but re-enactors misuse the term all the time. An easy mistake to make thoughbut it shows how one mistranslation and then wide spread publication can fool lots of people.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Fox » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:31 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:I no longer here the ghastly 'blood groove' explanation for fullers from re-enactors but I do hear them correcting mops sometimes.

Can I get an amen, Brothers?

Mark Griffin wrote:However regarding pig-faced I'm not sure if it would be a mop thing to say so best practice is to call it by a more accurate term.

Ok. I'll by that for a dollar; why use a moer modern term when a perfectly good period one exists?



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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Mark Griffin » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:47 pm

Ok. I'll by that for a dollar; why use a more modern term when a perfectly good period one exists?


Yes, although of course its a kind of slippery slope as many things have alternative more commonly used period terms. Tassets for example are more often called taces (pronounced tayces) but that might be considered a step too far? And you get into all those different names for pole-arms.


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Fox » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:59 pm

I don't see problem with using a word that is commonly used and understood, often for clarity, even if not the most commonly used at the time.

For example, the whole hose, hosen, breehes, etc. debate.
I think it's ok if we only refer to them as hose; we have a common understanding of what that means.



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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Mark Griffin » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:09 pm

didn't know there was a hose/hosen/breeches debate. I lead such a sheltered life.....


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Fox » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:13 pm

I didn't know about the tassets thing... [that they were more commonly called that]
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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Mark Griffin » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:20 pm

I've got a sneaky feeling that tasset is a later term, or gains favour later, but would have to check. I notice the Met has a catalogue entry for a breastplate with taces AND tassets, must go look at that!


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Re: I want to buy an armet ... I think

Postby Mark Griffin » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:36 pm

Hmmm, hold fire on the taces/tasses/tacies thingy, need to find a more up to date source. But a few of the terms we use now are a bit later or frenchified.....


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