15th century Linen doublet sources

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Fox » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:52 pm

I'm going to have a go at fullering some of the fustian we have by "walking" it, and see what sort of result I get.
I wonder if that would be the sort of thing.



guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby guthrie » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:33 pm

Fox wrote:I'm going to have a go at fullering some of the fustian we have by "walking" it, and see what sort of result I get.
I wonder if that would be the sort of thing.

The sort of thing for what? Is there any mention at all of fulling fustian?



User avatar
Sophia
Post Centurion
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: Camberwell, London
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Sophia » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:20 pm

If Fox's fustian is wool/linen (often called Linsey-Woolsey) then walking/waulking/fulling would be logical to tighten up the weave, the beating/walking of wet cloth which has treated with something such as fuller's earth or strong soap to remove any remaining oils will have the effect of felting the wool fibres together. However if it is linen/cotton then it would be boiled multiple times in the hope of shrinking the vegetable fibres as they do not felt in the same way.

I look forward to hearing about/seeing the results. It would be really interesting if Fox could provide a warp/weft thread count per inch before and afterward and give a clear description of the process, i.e. how he beat the cloth. timings, any treatment to remove remaining oils, was the cloth loom state (i.e. straight from the loom) when he started or had it been previously fulled and finished (which can involve dressings of various sorts). The tell for tentered cloth is the little tiny holes along each selvedge where the cloth has been stretched after fulling on a tenter frame

As an aside traditional Scottish Waulking is done by making a circular twist of the wet cloth and a group of people (often women) would sit round a hard surface (the photos I have seen show a table) bashing the cloth against the table while passing it hand to hand. This may not be the only method. There are a group of folk songs which were traditionally sung at this time known as waulking songs. IIRC fulling mills (water driven in general) used some sort of hammer to assist in the process.


aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Fox » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:25 pm

'Tis and I will.



User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:34 pm

Fox wrote:
Colin Middleton wrote:So what are these credits worth? :wink:

Yes, Colin. Have a gold star. :wink:

I was querying the status of Pastons because as G23b says elsewhere "the Pastons were common and were wealthy".
They are not part of the nobility.
Wikipedia says they're part of the gentry; but I think that might depend on what you consider to be gentry.
Arguably they part of a growing post-fuedal professional class.


Yay, gold star! :*:

As far as I know, they are gentry as one of them is elevated to a knight. This tends to imply that some-one in their family history is armigious (sp), which is the requirement for gentry. That said, only Sir John made knight, which means that the rest of the family were no higher than esquires, so they're pretty low down.


Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

guthrie
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2349
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: Polmont-Edinburgh

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby guthrie » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:39 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:As far as I know, they are gentry as one of them is elevated to a knight. This tends to imply that some-one in their family history is armigious (sp), which is the requirement for gentry. That said, only Sir John made knight, which means that the rest of the family were no higher than esquires, so they're pretty low down.

Or rather, they can pretend one of their ancestors was armigerous. Wasn't there a bit of a family to-do over pretending they weren't just jumped up yeoman stock?



User avatar
Sophia
Post Centurion
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: Camberwell, London
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Sophia » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 pm

IIRC one of the families they were in dispute with actually claimed that they had been unfree, i.e. villeins, can't remember who.


aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

User avatar
gregory23b
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Gyppeswyk, Suffolk

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby gregory23b » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:47 am

The Pastons were commoners (peasants), John the II or was it the III was knighted, he was then minor nobility, but that doesn't confer to the family, although reflected glory is a good thing.

As for term gentry, what does that mean anyhoo?


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

User avatar
Sophia
Post Centurion
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: Camberwell, London
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Sophia » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:27 pm

A good question Jorge that I actually think should be split into two.

1) What did the people of the time mean by gentry as opposed to nobility, yeomanry, peasantry, etc.?

2) What do we understand by gentry and how is this influenced by different schoosl of historical thought (thinking particularly of mercantilist and/or marxist historians here)?

Having asked this I will now have to go away and think about it quite hard and decide how one might frame a response to this in the absence of a TARDIS.


aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:58 pm

IIRC, in Origins of the Medieval Gentleman, Keen specified the requirement that a previous member of the family was entitled to a coat of arms as the primary qualification for gentry. Quite how a family became gentle in that case, I don't know. He also specified that the gentry covered gentlemen, esquires and knights (who were to have minimum incomes of £10, £20 and £40 respectively, to give some perspective). Once you hit Baron, etc. you were noble, rather than gentle.

This tends to be the basis that I work on when looking at historic figures. Obviously the 'rules' have changed an awful lot since the middle ages.

Colin


Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Sophia
Post Centurion
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: Camberwell, London
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Sophia » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:03 pm

Colin, are you referring to the following book?

Keen, Maurice Origins of the English Gentleman. Heraldry, Chilvary and Gentility in Medieval England c.1300-c.1500, Tempus 2002

I have read some of his early work and the reviews I have found for this are positive. IIRC he is a political and social historian, what I can't remember is if he is associated with any specific historical tendency. It is now on my wish list which was already stupidly long.


aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Fox » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:48 pm

Are his definition modern and useful, if arbitary, ones, based on some historical indicators?

Or are they intended to be simply indicative of what actually happened?

Or are they derived or extrapolated from written law and custom of the period?

I've seen things like sumptuary laws that indicate social rank and income, combining to define a person's status.



User avatar
Sophia
Post Centurion
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:46 pm
Location: Camberwell, London
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Sophia » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:34 pm

A good historian will generally work as follow:

1) Frame the scope of the question s/he wishes to answer

2) Analyse a range of original sources deemed relevant.

3) Analyse a range of secondary sources deemed relevant.

4) Lay out their argument based on the sources studied with relevant quotes.

The information available can be roughly summarised as follows:

1) Facts of record, i.e. hard facts extracted from contemporary documents such as inventory, accounts, legislation, legal documents, etc..

2) Contemporary opinion, i.e. opinions expressed in letters, diaries, polemic and diatribe, etc..

3) Other historians' published conclusions.

Understanding this process is part of a study called Historiography which is helpful in understanding what level and/or direction of bias is to be found in the publication being read.

With regard to Keen not having read the book I cannot provide a complete answer. My experience of reading this type of historical work is that the historian will probably draw conclusions which will match one or more of your three criteria. A critical reader will draw their conclusions on the basis of the original sources used as much as any secondary sources or the author's opinion.

In effect there is no right answer but there are many quality best guesses based on the most up to date information available.

A good introduction to Historiography is:

Tosh, Jon (2010) The pursuit of history: aims, methods and directions in the study of modern history, 5th Edition, Longman.

Despite the focus on modern history it is a relatively easy read and I feel that it is applicable to earlier periods. There are no doubt other books and articles that are more period and area specific but I have not looked for them to date.

With regard to sumptuary legislation I would recommend the following:

Hayward, Maria (2009) Rich Apparel: Clothing and the Law in Henry VIII's England, Ashgate, ISBN-10: 0754640965, ISBN-13: 978-0754640967

Muzarelli, Maria Giuseppina (2009) 'Reconciling the Privilege of a Few with the Common Good: Sumptuary Laws in Medieval and Early Modern Europe' in Journal of Medieval & Early Modern Studies Fall 2009, Vol. 39, Issue 3, pp.597-617

My general impression from this and other reading is that sumptuary laws were an attempt to roll back the clock and control the uncontrollable. Hayward's book is particularly usefull as it combines information about the garments of the time (drawn from wills, inventories and accounts) with the contemporary attempts at legislation and offers a suggested picture of what people might actually have worn. Muzarelli looks more at the social, economic and moral basis for the legislation and has a broader geographical and historical sweep.

Hope this is helpful


aka Thomasin Chedzoy, Tailor at Kentwell Hall

User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:50 pm

Sophia wrote:Colin, are you referring to the following book?

Keen, Maurice Origins of the English Gentleman. Heraldry, Chilvary and Gentility in Medieval England c.1300-c.1500, Tempus 2002

I have read some of his early work and the reviews I have found for this are positive. IIRC he is a political and social historian, what I can't remember is if he is associated with any specific historical tendency. It is now on my wish list which was already stupidly long.


That looks like it to me.

I know that Keen's written several books around the subject of the Medieval gentry, chivalry, knights, etc. It's quite an accessible read and has appeard in a number of bibliographies (which is where I became aware of it), so I'm guessing him to be fairly reliable.


Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Fox » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:56 pm

Fox wrote:Are his definition modern and useful, if arbitary, ones, based on some historical indicators?

Or are they intended to be simply indicative of what actually happened?

Or are they derived or extrapolated from written law and custom of the period?

I've seen things like sumptuary laws that indicate social rank and income, combining to define a person's status.

It occurs to me that's probably not very clearly worded.

I was asking is he saying:
  • When I use the term "gentry" I mean....
    or
  • Typically the term "gentry" would have been used, at the time, to describe....
    or
  • In laws and custom of the time, a member of the gentry is defined as....



User avatar
Colin Middleton
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2037
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:58 pm

Not certain, but I think that he was aiming for the second.

Colin


Colin

"May 'Blood, blood, blood' be your motto!"

Image

User avatar
gregory23b
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Gyppeswyk, Suffolk

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby gregory23b » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:18 pm

More to add to this discussion regarding the type of cloth for doublets.

These come from the Stonor letters and Papers, namely a memorandum of expenses for servants, extracts are as follows:

For lynyn cloth to hys doblet iiij d - not sur if this refers to lining, or a doublet made from linen, either applies.

a yard of blake russet karyssey (kersey) to make Richert baron a dublet, price xiiij d.

---------

within this document are the following references to hose material

close hosyn of russet karyssey price xvjd
a payre of hossen for D...off russet karyssey the price ijs
It a payr off hosse for the chyld off the stabyll of russett karyssey price xvjd

etc

about six or seven entries for russett kersey hose.


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Fox » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:50 pm

gregory23b wrote:a yard of blake russet karyssey (kersey) to make Richert baron a dublet, price xiiij d.

Kersey?
That is interesting, and broadens what has been said already.

I note that a yard [of narrow cloth] is not enough cloth to make a doublet.
I don't know what that means; it's simply an observation.

I also note, if I have my prices right, that 14d/yard is relatively modest.



User avatar
gregory23b
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2923
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:46 pm
Location: Gyppeswyk, Suffolk

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby gregory23b » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:04 pm

What I find interesting apart form the cloth type for doublet given the discussions re fustian, is that the kersey is the same for hose.


middle english dictionary

Isabela on G23b "...somehow more approachable in real life"

http://medievalcolours.blogspot.com

"I know my place." Alice the Huswyf

User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Fox » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:17 pm

Kersey, as I understand it, seems like the right wool for hose; hard-wearing with some stretch.



User avatar
Fox
Absolute Wizard
Posts: 2652
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: 15th century Linen doublet sources

Postby Fox » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:21 pm

Not always the best reference, but the wikipedia reference for Kersey is thus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kersey_(cloth)




Return to “1100-1500”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests