Help sought on 'authentic' armour

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Walter von Are
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Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby Walter von Are » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:59 pm

Hello,
I'm new to this forum, but joined because I found some very learned discussions by people who clearly know their stuff. I'm hoping I can get some pointers from you! :)

I do medieval reenacting with the SCA, but am gravitating towards Battle of the Nations. So I need to upgrade my kit from the hidden plastic stuff I wear now to something decent.

Now: I have an offer for a 12g stainless Barbuta that has me sorely tempted. However, I am likely only able to afford splinted legs and arm protection (with a floating cop), and something like a coat of plates for my chest. I am wondering whether this is a combination that happened at all? And, if so - are you aware of any sources? Images?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Walter



Adam R
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Re: Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby Adam R » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:57 am

What era are we talking? Or is it any single era?


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Mike Garrett
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Re: Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby Mike Garrett » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:30 pm

Welcome Walter.

With a barbute I'd hazard that you are looking at mid - late 15th century?



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wulfenganck
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Re: Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby wulfenganck » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:12 pm

Senilis Pravus wrote:Welcome Walter.

With a barbute I'd hazard that you are looking at mid - late 15th century?
...which seems a bit too late for splinted arms and legs, as that seems to refer more to an earlier 14th century style, if I'm not mistaken. Same with a coat of plates as this is a bit outfashioned by the end of the 14th century. A brigandine or plate-armour would be the body-defense of choice for mid to late 15th century armour
Walter, there is always a big temptation to build your equipment around some single piece, because that single piece is nice, cheap, authentic or whatever. BUt usually this approach doesn't work.



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The Iron Dwarf
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Re: Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby The Iron Dwarf » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:18 pm

dont know what the period is for battle of the nations but there is a lot of activity on the armour archive concerning it.
the us team was there this year and the armour they had stood up quite well I think.
[url]http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/index.php/[url]

as well as the fighting being different meaning different protection is needed there are also rules on the types of materials used I think and standards for both armour and weapons that you have to comply with

edited to fix link and add more info


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abaddon1974
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Re: Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby abaddon1974 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:30 pm

I think that the battle of nations teams tend to use 14th century armour.
It might be worth looking for the same armourers they use as some of the eastern european armourers have been making stuff for that kind of combat for years, the last thing you want is to spend a fortune on something that will be battered out of shape by the end of the first fight.



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wulfenganck
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Re: Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby wulfenganck » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:46 pm

abaddon1974 wrote:I think that the battle of nations teams tend to use 14th century armour.
It might be worth looking for the same armourers they use as some of the eastern european armourers have been making stuff for that kind of combat for years, the last thing you want is to spend a fortune on something that will be battered out of shape by the end of the first fight.

Hmm, oddly enough, those guys "back then" produced armour to prevent people from actually getting maimed and/or killed.
Shouldn't armour as historically correct as possible be the best choice;-)

Just kidding, I know that reeancatment battles need some changes/adjustments. But I'm still not sure, what Walter is looking for: are you going for reenactment in general or is it only about joining the Battle of the Nations?
Because although some of the people there come from pure reenactment background, it's merely about the fighting. Historical correctness is of secondary importance.
BUt then you should be aware, that you might match in the Battle of the Nations, but maybe not in a well-researched renactment displayal.



Walter von Are
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Re: Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby Walter von Are » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:35 pm

Thanks all for the posts so far.

I agree that building the whole set around a single piece probably isn't the best way forward. I'm basically sold on earlier period as this correlates with my SCA persona (which hasn't been properly fixed in time yet, but between the concerns of my lady and my own, we appear to be looking at somewhere in the 12th to 14th century.

Between that, my limitations as to what I can afford and my dual aims of this armor a) keeping me safe in a BotN context and b) looking good (and being not too heavy) for the SCA context - in which I will, after all, spend the preponderant amount of my time - I think I'm basically set for a Klappvisor Bascinet (which allows me to use different visors or no visor at all if and when I need to adjust), with splinted arms and legs and a coat of plates of some sort.

That - admittedly very basic - description should have me covered for a fairly large span of history in my 'target zone'. Right? Right? :worried:

Now, on the splinted bits of armor I'm very lucky because I have someone who is willing to help me, and I just saw a really nice set of legs he made for someone. It's going to be great. But he gave me homework - to find an effigy (or tapestry or painting or whatever) with the sort of kit I want to emulate. :sweat:

my first attempt at Google Images didn't get me very far (apparently my GoogleFu needs improving). I strongly suspect that there's the odd person or two on this forum who might have a link (or several) to sources where I might find images of historical sources for what a set of armour with splinted arms and legs (and/or a coat of plates) might have looked like? Now I would get some proper books and *really* do my own homework if I wasn't on a lengthy business trip, but these days I barely have time to check my email, and no time (or place) to sit down and read a book - and he does want me to send him an image in a couple of days or so, so I suspect he's okay with it if I utilize what we now call 'networked intelligence'.

So I hope you won't consider this cheating - I do want to get this stuff right. Any and all help, again, much appreciated.



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Graham Ashford
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Re: Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby Graham Ashford » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:23 am

Hi there

Try the effigy datebase: http://effigiesandbrasses.com/ and the miniature databses: http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/ as well as Doug Strong's 1300's analysis of effigy: http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armou ... lysis.html

Splinted kit comes in and out of fashion quite early in England and Northern Europe but lingers well after in North Eastern Europe, particularly in the regions that we now call Germany. A general, but not exact rule of thumb for later 14th century kit can be:

Plate arms, splinted cuisee, plate greaves: England
Plate everything: France
Splinted everything: Germany

But don't look at this rule of thumb too closely as it crumbles very quickly, but its a nice leaping off point for pub quizzes and the like.

I've done some splints in the past, with wide splints under the leather and ridged smaller ones on the front, they are very effective but can be prone to loosing their look after a few stout whallops :)

Looking at the latest finds from Estonia and Lithuania it appears that the leather used under the metal work was not simple veg tan, that most of us use these days but was rather a rawhide leather (partially tanned leather) that can be set like concrete very simply, I am making some arms using this later this year, but the cost of the leather can make this very expensive in comparison to standard veg tan. Additionally with any leather/steel splints stay on top of the cleaning to avoid rust appearing or they can prove very difficult to clean and not ruin the look of the leather underneath.

Here's a set of standard vegt tan splinted rerebrace I did a little while ago to help explain my ramblings above. When done again with the rawhide leather, gesso and paint they will be very stout defences indeed.

Hope this all helps.

Image



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Biro
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Re: Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby Biro » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:33 am

Walter von Are wrote:That - admittedly very basic - description should have me covered for a fairly large span of history in my 'target zone'. Right? Right? :worried:


It puts you firmly in the 14th century - so not a massive span of your target period. Given your target of 12-14c, you'll struggle to have an authentic setup involving rigid armour during the 12-13c, so it would probably make sense to make your target c14. It will narrow down your research considerably and make things a lot easier :-)



Walter von Are
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Re: Help sought on 'authentic' armour

Postby Walter von Are » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Thank you all, that's an excellent start (or jump-off point) for me.
14c (as in: 1300-1399, right?) works for me just fine. And my persona is German (from the Ahr river, just before it joins the Rhine, as am I), so that works as well.
Interesting information about the rawhide, I'll be sure to discuss this with my more knowledgeable armourer (when I see him again).
I'll be looking at some of those links now... ;)
Thanks!




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