Decorated Banners

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Tiamat
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Decorated Banners

Postby Tiamat » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:15 pm

I've been researching early 15th century heraldic flags and stumbled onto a problem, I hope someone here can help me out!

My team is currently making new banners for our parade. We all have really posh shield, with our coats of arms but also other illustrations (animals, flowers, decorated edges, motto's etc.). We know this is authentic because we have seen contemporary examples. Now, we would really like to have the same kind of images on the banners, so the coats of arms but some additional decorations. The question of course becomes, how authentic is that? I've found examples of highly decorated pennons and standards, often including decorative edges and motto's. I've found one example of an actual banner with a decorative edge, but that's about it. I'd be very grateful if anyone wants to share their thoughts on this or point me in the right direction. :)



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gregory23b
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Re: Decorated Banners

Postby gregory23b » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:35 pm

The problem you have is that many images of banners are not heraldic, but military, quasi-military, civic and religious, or even for special one off occasions such as feasts or funerals etc.

As for decorative edging, presumably tassled or fringed, why not? It is not exactly a major issue if you are using a banner, that is to say a major piece of work, look at this banner roll page of Ed IV

http://www.freelibrary.org/medieval/banners.htm

These are the banners of important people, so a decorative edge would probably be a must as a piece of embellishment.

I have seen a Burgundian pennon with decorative edging, the flag itself was damask brocade and the fringing in opposing colours, see the Charles the Bold Exhibition info.

I suggest you look at Karen Larsdatter's site for banners etc.


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Tiamat
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Re: Decorated Banners

Postby Tiamat » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:08 pm

Thanks you for your reply! I've already looked at the Larsdatter banner section, unfortunately there are only a few examples and most of those aren't banners in the strict sense of the word, they're different types of flags. :)



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Brian la Zouche
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Re: Decorated Banners

Postby Brian la Zouche » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:21 pm

ok it wargames but some of these guys are as anal about being authentic as the best re-enactor

http://krigsspil.dk/download/download_3.html



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gregory23b
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Re: Decorated Banners

Postby gregory23b » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:26 pm

"most of those aren't banners in the strict sense of the word, they're different types of flags."

If you mean a full on banner as used by a military commander then that is one thing (it is still a flag at the end of the day as are all of them), but the edging or fringing is not dependent on that, the Ghent civic banner has fringing.

Or what do you mean by a banner?


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Brian la Zouche
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Re: Decorated Banners

Postby Brian la Zouche » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:13 pm

true most listed are ''flags'' but there are some banners, and im sure some war games sites will have banners listed, just thought id drop that link as it was already in my faves :P



Tiamat
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Re: Decorated Banners

Postby Tiamat » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:33 am

For as far as I'm ware, there are various sorts of heraldic flags. Several smaller types, often pointed or swallow-tailed (in Dutch we would call these 'wimpels' or 'vaandels'), and a few big ones, of which the banner is one. This could be a linguistic thing, though, as in the Netherlands, we have 'banieren' (banners). A 'banier' may only be used by a 'baanderheer' (lit. 'bannerlord', equivalent of English 'baron'). Banieren are big, rectangular flags. Most examples I've seen only sport the coat of arms of the baanderheer.

What exactly do you mean by Ghent Civic Banner? This one: http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/cgi-bin/wwwo ... %250=89424
That's an example of a Dutch 'vaandel' not a 'banier'.



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Re: Decorated Banners

Postby Alexander » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:01 pm

On the site of the Compagnie d'Ordonnance are pictures of the banners and cornets of the various Burgundian companies. It's a bit later than you specified, the third quarter of the 15th century to be exactly.

These are the ones for the one we portray, the 5th company.
The banner would be about 1 meter high and 3 meters long, we don't have one of those. (Edit: hmm.. it doesn't show completely, click here for a full view)
Image

The cornet of the eskaders about 0.5 by 2.5 meters.
Image

Here's a view from the back, it's painted on silk. The front view is nicer, there is extra detail added, there.
Image



Tiamat
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Re: Decorated Banners

Postby Tiamat » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:47 am

Great example, thanks! I take it your banner features your coat of arms, motto and patron saint? :)

This is the idea I'm after for our banners as well, only thing I'n not certain of, if this kind of shape was used in the early 15th century. The only contemporary examples I've seen so far are the 'broader' types of banners.



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Re: Decorated Banners

Postby Alexander » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:29 am

Yes: Patron saint (St. Nicholas, in our case), firestriker and St. Andrew's cross (Burgundian imagery), motto of Charles the Bold (Je lay emprins - I have undertaken it) and the firestriker and St. Andrew's cross again. As you can see on the companies page the banners and cornets of all Burgundian companies were laid out this way, with different patron saints and colours (and minor variations in shape).




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