bascinet visor variations?

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
BYDAND
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:30 pm

bascinet visor variations?

Postby BYDAND » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:16 pm

Hi all,
I'm fairly new to the forum, but I have been visiting for some time. so if I may, could anyone advise me as to what alternatives there are to the pig faced visor for a bascinet? I have been asked to make an alternative visor for a friend as he has had major difficulty with his pig face visor and I have to admit, after borrowing it I can see why.

I hope one of you knowledgeable souls will have the answer for me.

Thanks
James


Bespoke armour made by BYDAND Armouries.

User avatar
BYDAND
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby BYDAND » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:42 am

sorry, should have said, dog faced and sparrow beak have been considered already.

Also, is it acceptable for certain sallet style visors to be used on a bascinet? Just a stab in the dark, but I thought I'ld ask :^)


Bespoke armour made by BYDAND Armouries.

Stuart Quayle
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Douglas, Isle of Man
Contact:

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby Stuart Quayle » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:41 am

Hi James

Firstly, what sort of a problem is your friend having with the conical visor on his bascinet? Is it one of lack of visibility - the occulae being not in line with the wearer's eyes, or maybe lack of breathing space/comfort due to the cone shape of the visor?

My guess is that your friend's bascinet has a twin side pivoted houndskull visor at present(?) although you can get the 'pigface' visors with just the single, central, fixing point.

You could simply just leave off the visor, take off the side fixing points and fill the holes left in the side of the helmet basin. Many contemporary 14th century illustrations show knights wearing bascinets without any side or central fixtures for visors.

But, if some form of face protection is a must (and the bascinet already has an maille aventail) how about fixing a Breteche (triangular shaped steel nasal plate) to the lower face section of the aventail, the top of the breteche then simply hooks over an L shaped bar fixed to the middle of the brow of the helmet basin. Very German or Central European this option.

I personally would avoid adding a (later) Sallet 'jawbone' or Venetian style visor to this bascinet, unless you wished to portray a re-used antique bascinet being used in the later mid to late 15th century. It just wouldn't look right.

BTW by "Dog-faced" do you mean a shovel-faced visor, i.e. a flatish bascinet visor, or do you mean the globose variety? The globose visors are usually side pivoted, provide a good deal of space for breathing and vision and come in towards the middle - end of the 14th century and might be an ideal solution.

Regards
Stuart



User avatar
Graham Ashford
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:44 pm
Location: Fareham, Hants
Contact:

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby Graham Ashford » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:02 pm

HI there

Lots of good advice above, some more details on the difficulties he is facing would help a bit. These difficulties would also help come up with the correct modern solution for your friend.

But in the meatime, a couple of great places for some research on variations should include:

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/ A great place to start, but effigies tend to reenforce a lot of the modern reenactorisms about the dates surrounding helmet types that I see on a monthly basis with my work.

The http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/ tends to offer a lot more variation in the same picture as artists attempt to depict the differences between Royalty, Nobility, Common amn etc in the same picture.

When you get going let me know if you want any help as I've done a number of 'pimp my bascinet' projects for people over the last few years.

Hope this helps.

Graham



User avatar
BYDAND
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby BYDAND » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:12 pm

Hi chaps,

Thanks for that advise and yes the difficulties are predominantly vision based, also when I tried it out for some reason my depth perception was totally screwed up, possibly due to the breath holes only being on one side of the cone.

However, I am slightly unsure of the actual visor itself, in that the angles don't feel right to me. the eye slits point upwards and I found myself having to drop my head down just to look people square in the face. I'm no giant at 6' 2", so this got me questioning the visors construction.

You make a very valid point Stuart about the non visor option, which would work within our own group's combat or at knight school, but when Tewksbury and other multi group bashes are on the books I think my friend would prefer to be visored.

I think you may well have suggested the best option with the globose design, which if memory serves is similar to the german clapface visor I have been seeing everywhere. So I will check out Graham's research links and let you guys know how I get on

Oh by the way, thank you for the offer of help Graham. Not wanting to blow smoke up your *rse, but after looking at your website I think I could learn a lot from.

Cheers
James :thumbup:


Bespoke armour made by BYDAND Armouries.

User avatar
BYDAND
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby BYDAND » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:43 am

Well, I have looked on the links that Graham suggested and found them very interesting indeed. Several of the painting show what could be described as globose, however I am at a total loss to find any sort of pattern instruction or guide as to how to start. The only visor I can find, in the modern context, that is dished below the eye slit is the klappface. So what would you guys suggest? :worried:

I feel a little embarrassed, as I have been armouring for a little while, but this has stumped me. :-x


Bespoke armour made by BYDAND Armouries.

Stuart Quayle
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Douglas, Isle of Man
Contact:

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby Stuart Quayle » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:47 pm

Hi James

I don't know of any Globose visor making patterns available to purchase on-line, but Doug Strong of Talbots Fine Accessories sells armouring guide patterns for making:

Italian pigface visors (twin side mounted);
Italian pigface visors (single central mount);
and single mounted, klappvisor

here is the link to purchase: http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/books/metalwork.html

There are also free(?) armouring patterns available on The Armour Archive, but none for a globose visor unfortunately.

Regards
Stuart Q



User avatar
Zachos
Posts: 424
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:34 pm

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby Zachos » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:52 pm

BYDAND wrote:You make a very valid point Stuart about the non visor option, which would work within our own group's combat or at knight school, but when Tewksbury and other multi group bashes are on the books I think my friend would prefer to be visored.


Why would he be wearing a bascinet at Tewkesbury? The only suitable style would be a grand bascinet, and that is almost out of fashion for battlefields.


Slowly realizing just how far is still to go.

User avatar
BYDAND
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby BYDAND » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:41 pm

Our group mostly focuses on the first half of the hundred years war, so we have a blend of late 14th & early 15th century kit in use and my friend only has the one helm at present. I'm sure the he will be able to borrow an alternative for Tewkesbury if that is an issue.

Anyway back to the point of the question. I will have a look at the patterns as suggested, thank you Stuart. Also could you give any more hints with regard to the globose type?


Bespoke armour made by BYDAND Armouries.

User avatar
BYDAND
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby BYDAND » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:01 pm

Our group mostly focuses on the first half of the hundred years war, so we have a blend of late 14th & early 15th century kit in use and my friend only has the one helm at present. I'm sure the he will be able to borrow an alternative for Tewkesbury if that is an issue.

Anyway back to the point of the question. I will have a look at the patterns as suggested, thank you Stuart. Also could you give any more hints with regard to the globose type?


Bespoke armour made by BYDAND Armouries.

User avatar
BYDAND
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby BYDAND » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:11 pm

Sorry about the double post.

Anyway, I have stumbled across a website call steel-mastery.com they show what they refer to as a round faced visor, it is the closest representation of what suggested Stuart. Have a look and let me know what you think.

Thanks
James


Bespoke armour made by BYDAND Armouries.

User avatar
Graham Ashford
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:44 pm
Location: Fareham, Hants
Contact:

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby Graham Ashford » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:34 pm

Have you got any pictures of the visor you are thinking of that you can post?



Stuart Quayle
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Douglas, Isle of Man
Contact:

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby Stuart Quayle » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:28 am

Hi James

I have had a look at the Steel Mastery armoury site and see two reproduction bascinets which you might have been referring to:

1. mid-14th century Bascinet with simple plate nose-guard (Breteche):


2. a helmet that is listed as a 15th century Italian Bascinet with Globose visor:

As the Hundred Years War ("H.Y.W.") began in 1337 AD and your friend wishes to portray a knight campaigning in the first stage of the H.Y.W. you still may wish to consider making him a fairly flat-faced Shovel visor with only a very slight globose appearance to it's profile, as this still appears to be the style of visor most appropriate for this early period - (look at the "Romance of Alexander" illuminations and the effigy of Sir Hugh Hastings for similar bascinet visor types).

However, if your friend would prefer more breathing space how about a "Bullet-nosed bascinet visor" (pics attachec below). I had a re-think about the Globose style of visor and really they only begin to appear at the beginning of the 15th century. The Grand Cronicles of France show a depiction of the Battle of Crecy 1346 and the Battle of Poitiers 1356 with mounted knights wearing bascinets with globose visors, BUT apparently these ilustrations are dated to a time-frame of 1415AD and so I would be cautious about using a globose visor on a bascinet for anything other than early 15th century to mid 15th century (say 1440AD).

The 'bullet-nosed' visor for a bascinet with camail is dated towards the very end of the 14th century and so appaars on the face of it, the best option. Pics of extant bascinets from Dimitry Nelson's Facebook page.

The most important thing to remember (as far as I can determine) is: Ultimately, the bascinet visor style you choose will be determined by the existing style/shape of the helmet basin you have to work with. They have to fit together properly, be well balanced and most importantly look right. For example the Italian bascinet with pointy basin and globose visor, there have been questioned raised by a learned scholar as to whether the visor and helmet actually started off together, even though they are thought to be original pieces.

Regards
Stuart Q
Attachments
the-italian-top-pointed-bascinet-7.jpg
the-italian-top-pointed-bascinet-7.jpg (24.81 KiB) Viewed 5829 times
Bullet visored Bascinet - side view.jpg
Bullet visored Bascinet - side view.jpg (13.29 KiB) Viewed 5829 times
Bullet visored Bascinet - front view.jpg
Bullet visored Bascinet - front view.jpg (11.31 KiB) Viewed 5829 times



User avatar
BYDAND
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby BYDAND » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:18 am

Stuart, that is great. I had been looking at the "steel mastery" website example Bascinet with side hinged visor, it had a slightly dished face to it, but nothing like as deep as the first image you show there of the globose visored Bascinet. Now I'm guessing that one is too late in date.

Now for some reason I am struggling to attach pictures to my posts (will sort it out eventually). I will look into finding a pattern for the bullet-nosed visor, but I will also talk to him about the simple nose bar.

By the way Graham, where about's are you based?

Thanks
James


Bespoke armour made by BYDAND Armouries.

Stuart Quayle
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Douglas, Isle of Man
Contact:

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby Stuart Quayle » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:17 am

No problem James. BTW the nasal bar option bascinet/cervelliere is thought to be worn usually underneath a Greathelm, (but not exclusively), so the Greathelm over the top could provide more protection if needed, or the bascinet could be worn by itself.



Stuart Quayle
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Douglas, Isle of Man
Contact:

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby Stuart Quayle » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:23 am

Here is a link to the slideviewer for Swedish armourer - Albert Collins, showing his wonderful 14th century pieces. You will find such a bascinet with nasal-bar and Greathelm combination here.

http://www.viaarmorari.com/

Regards
Stuart Q



User avatar
BYDAND
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby BYDAND » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:24 pm

I have looked longingly at this website several times over. I have to be realistic and say this stuff is out of my league at the present. I do love the way he makes some of the pieces ( helms especially ) look like original artefacts, just by leaving some of the imperfections in the plate. I have to say though, what a website! I nearly had a crisis :worried: !!

I would like to thank you for your help Stuart. One last question, which Graham may be able to help with as well, How do go about starting a bullet faces visor?

ie, is there a pattern out there that you know of (which would save me some time), or do you advise me to play around with some scrap pieces first.

Thanks
James


Bespoke armour made by BYDAND Armouries.

Stuart Quayle
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Douglas, Isle of Man
Contact:

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby Stuart Quayle » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:56 pm

Hi James

The only armourer I know of who has made a copy of this Churburg 1395 bascinet with bullet-shaped visor is the armourer from 'Jolly-Knight Armoury' in the Ukraine. Here is the link to his armoury site showing the helmet:

http://jollyknight.com.ua/armoury/produ ... 04eae6898b

Regards
Stuart Q



User avatar
Graham Ashford
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:44 pm
Location: Fareham, Hants
Contact:

Re: bascinet visor variations?

Postby Graham Ashford » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:41 pm

Bydand, hi there I am based near Portsmouth in Hampshire.

All the best

Graham




Return to “1100-1500”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests