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Rivetting Points

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:18 pm
by Jim Smith
I'm intending to use mig wire to rivet the aiglets on to some woven points - i've found this to look considerably better than sewn. Can anyone suggest the correct guage mig wire? i've tried the narrowest and it really is too narrow.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:43 am
by Clarenceboy
I'll try and remember to ask Will what he uses to rivet his points with. He mostly does leather ones but sometimes does woven too and always rivets rather than sews

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:46 pm
by Biro
Out of curiosity, why riveted over sewn?

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:19 pm
by Mark Griffin
probably because the overwhelming evidence is thats what they were. I can't think of any surviving ones that are sewn. Tons of riveted ones. Some crimped. So do what the evidence says.

Same as points made by lucetting. Any evidence? Extremely rare i think, they are all finger braided from memory if narrow wares are used. Its stronger for one thing.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:03 pm
by Tod
I use the copper wire out of four (solid) core cable. I went down to the electrical supplier and they gave it to me for free. I might still have a bit left how much do you need?

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:46 pm
by gregory23b
I found two lace chapes about an inch long, plain, of indeterminate date, anything from 14thc to 16th that were rolled from both sides, forming a B profile, no hole at all.

The rivets seem to be mainly iron IIRC, can anyone add more detail to that.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:41 pm
by guthrie
Did someone mention medieval metal work?
I had a look in the Mol dress accessories book, lots of copper alloy/ brass chapes, some with rivets but they don't identify the material of the rivet... (Someone needs to go back and look at the finds with modern technology because now we can analyse smaller things better and quicker)
Their book on the post medieval stuff in Southwark has brass chapes with copper alloy rivets.

So they used copper alloy anyway. I suspect that there might be more tendency to rusting and staining with an iron rivet, whereas at least with a buckle the rust would get worn off in use more readily.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:18 pm
by MarkSF
I read way back in an archaeology report that residue of tiny iron rivets found with aiglets. I snip the fine pointy ends off carpet tacks and use them with success. Interesting thing is, they rust a little and swell, gripping the point and aiglet tight. Not as pretty as copper though.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:00 pm
by Jim Smith
Tod wrote:I use the copper wire out of four (solid) core cable. I went down to the electrical supplier and they gave it to me for free. I might still have a bit left how much do you need?


About ten inches worth if you've got it please Tod. Can send you an SAE if you'd like.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:10 pm
by Jim Smith
Mark Griffin wrote:probably because the overwhelming evidence is thats what they were. I can't think of any surviving ones that are sewn. Tons of riveted ones. Some crimped. So do what the evidence says.

Same as points made by lucetting. Any evidence? Extremely rare i think, they are all finger braided from memory if narrow wares are used. Its stronger for one thing.


So I shouldn't lucet points? i'm not trying to call you on this Griff, but it's a new one on me. Guess the use of the lucet is a bit of a re-enactorism for late medieval points then?

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:09 am
by guthrie
I don't want to do you down or anything but i have seen the cognoscenti saying you should hand weave lucet for points for a few years now, but it's one of these things that doesn't matter compared to getting rid of many rather larger and more obvious issues.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:12 pm
by Mark Griffin
but it's one of these things that doesn't matter compared to getting rid of many rather larger and more obvious issues.


Or you could look at it as one of the easy things to do. Whilst I very much doubt every WOTR participant is hardly likely to rush off and bin welded helmets in favour of raised ones, making some better points should be within most peoples capabilities?

To avoid the to lucet/not lucet debate, why not just use leather......? That's pretty common too.

To summerize from the evidence i have:

Never seen any lucetted points, if using thread they are braided and or plaited. As Gina says, there is tons of extremely good evidence for this including a whole set of instructions (handily transcribed into a book by the silk womens group Soper Lane, plug plug). They exists in the archeological evidence so why use anything else?

Rivets exist in both iron and brass form.

Points can be conical, tubular or just flat sheet crimped around as described by gregory 23b. I have bags of them here from various digs and mudlarks, the variety ifs quite wide ranging.

Rarely do you get them castlelated/with bobbles on the end and decorated in the 15th cent, they are GENERALLY later. And they are universally very thin and many are very nasty indeed, low quality work from shim is the most common type. Some are gilded and silvered but you can imagine what level of wealth the wearer had to do that. They are of course covered by sumptuary legislation as well so dont turn up with scarlet silk points at your next muster lest you can afford the fine :)

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:47 pm
by Tod
Jim Smith wrote:
Tod wrote:I use the copper wire out of four (solid) core cable. I went down to the electrical supplier and they gave it to me for free. I might still have a bit left how much do you need?


About ten inches worth if you've got it please Tod. Can send you an SAE if you'd like.

I'll have a look this evening and see what I have left, or if you can wait our contract sparky is due here in early January and he'll have some.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:41 pm
by Redders
I have some off cuts from a recent project.
Let me know if you still need some. I definately have a 10" piece laying about that i don't need.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:00 pm
by guthrie
Mark Griffin wrote:
but it's one of these things that doesn't matter compared to getting rid of many rather larger and more obvious issues.


Or you could look at it as one of the easy things to do. Whilst I very much doubt every WOTR participant is hardly likely to rush off and bin welded helmets in favour of raised ones, making some better points should be within most peoples capabilities?

Oh indeed, although I have plenty of lucetted ones and it'll take a while before I replace them with woven ones. I usually use leather ones for most purposes anyway. I'm sure this sort of thing would make a wonderful study in the transfer of knowledge through society, how lucetting became fashionable, almost expected, then dies away again as the correct information spreads and more people learn how to do the weaving themselves.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:21 pm
by lucy the tudor
Oddly enough, lots of people given the choice of woven, for a comparatively small difference in price considering the time difference in the making, still choose the lucetted.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:24 am
by Tod
Jim PM me your address and I'll send you what I have, about 19" of 2 x 2.5mm + 1 x 1.5mm three core copper.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:17 pm
by Jim Smith
Pm'd you Tod.

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:36 pm
by The_Kyle
Mark Griffin wrote:Whilst I very much doubt every WOTR participant is hardly likely to rush off and bin welded helmets in favour of raised ones, making some better points should be within most peoples capabilities?


If I can do it, anyone can!

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:14 pm
by Colin Middleton
Some random thoughts on making points.

To fit the aigelt, I always glue it on (wood glue), whether I intend to rivit it or not (I'm tending not to bother for arming points anymore as they tend to break more often).
For rivets, it depends where I got the point from and what size the hole is. If it's small, I simply use a pin (can be tricky to pein over though). If the hole is larger, I use panel pins (available in steel or brass from Wickes).

For the material, I tend to use finger braded linen, hemp or silk (waxed heavily) for arming points and platted wool for clothing points (I tried finger breaking the wool, but I kept snapping it). They're quite easy to make up that way.

If using leather, aren't most of the survivals alumn tawed goat skin? I know that the best leather points that I've ever had were alumn tawed. It made them much more resistant to snapping.

Does anyone know what materials were used to make points and arming points?

Many thanks

Colin

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:27 pm
by Mark Griffin
Surviving points on many harnesses etc tend to be more from deer. Certainly all the gestech helm linings in Vienna and on various helms are buck skin and that's what i do mine in. Its strong, springy and robust. I use pig for clothes if not using a narrow ware of some description, braided, plaited or woven

Re: Rivetting Points

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:08 am
by Mark Griffin
Oh and on the rivetfront, veneer pins. They need annealing first, but are excellent, and already part formed!