How do you attach you legs?

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wyldstallions
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How do you attach you legs?

Postby wyldstallions » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:22 pm

Just trying to find out the best way to attach my legs? I currently use an over the shoulder harness (I know the authenticity is a bit questionable) but it was for lack of knowing another way to attach them. I use it for both my plate legs and my and a set I made which are leather with plates riveted on the inside. If anyone has any ideas that would be great as it seems scar tissue has formed on my back from the harness digging in :thumbdown: .

Thanks in advance



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paul bennett
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby paul bennett » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:33 pm

You need to have a section you can tighten around the stomach, and make the shoulder straps cross over. That should help a lot. Primarily, your hips should be taking the weight


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Zachos
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby Zachos » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:09 pm

The way I do it is the way one I've come to, after talking with people and researching myself, as the most probably method of attaching in period.

Step 1: A tight fitting doublet, sleeved or not, it doesn't matter. Your hose should be pointed to this, but the main point is that it needs to be tight, so that it is in contact with your body from shoulder to waist. Mine is made of two layers of linen, and doesn't meet at the front, so I can lace it really tight.

Step 2: Make as many eyelets on the bottom edge of the doublet as you feel you need to support your leg armour. I have only one point on each side, but am considering adding another per leg to work as an insurance policy. I've not had a problem yet though, probably because my points are made of heavy duty waxed linen handbraids, and the eyelets are reinforced with bronze rings.

Step 3: Lace your leg armour to your doublet. If it is sleeveless then you will need a jack, or second doublet over the top. Buckle up the straps on the legs and have fun.

A few points:
Many re-enactors wear cuisses without greaves. I have yet to find evidence of this for the 15th century. It appears to arrive somewhere in the 16th century around the time the cuisses are being strapped to the cuirasses. I believe this is because the greave with a pin greatly assists in bearing the weight of the cuisse, spreading the weight more evenly.

All of the documents I've read suggest wrapping your knees around with blanket. This stops the rivets on the inside of the armour from cutting up your hose. I always wrap my knees.

The documents also suggest wearing red clothing so your opponent will not know where they have injured you, and therefore where your weak-spot is. I have also seen images of black arming garments. I assume it hides the blood just as well.

Hope this helps.

Image
Image
^Evidence the method is effective for all tasks a medieval man may need to undertake, including badminton.


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latheaxe
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby latheaxe » Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:30 pm

After nine years in re-enactment and tried various ways...I have found to simply make some holes along the bottom of your arming jacket and tie your legs to that..Theres alot less strain on your body doing it this way... :D



wyldstallions
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby wyldstallions » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:16 pm

Thanks everyone. Yea I do have that setup Paul, it could be a bit on by back though. Zachos I do have greaves they arn't causing a problem at the moment fortunately. I'll try out pointing them onto my jack like you and latheaxe suggest.

Thanks again. Unless anyone else has other suggestion I could give a go.



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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:30 pm

I point mine to my arming doublet.


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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby House of De Clifford » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:50 pm

To be honest, i find it more comfortable to support the weight on my shoulders. Using a brace system that i made myself, it takes the weight of the legs nicely and stops any twisting which i used to experience when pointed to my doublet.
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wyldstallions
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby wyldstallions » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:24 pm

I got some time between Christmas and new year and managed to point them on so comfy. I don't think I'll have any more bruises on my shoulders from strapping them over.

Thanks again for advice everyone.



cloudy-cola-corp
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby cloudy-cola-corp » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:06 pm

just to throw in a note that cuisses without greaves or no armour at all on the leg is often more authentic if portraying hussites as the often fought in war wagons nullifying the need for leg or shin protection and in some art work it shows them in full armour and nothing but braies from the waist down,
although greaves are likely more authentic with other armies

just my 2p's worth :)



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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby wulfenganck » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:25 am

cloudy-cola-corp wrote:just to throw in a note that cuisses without greaves or no armour at all on the leg is often more authentic if portraying hussites as the often fought in war wagons nullifying the need for leg or shin protection and in some art work it shows them in full armour and nothing but braies from the waist down,
although greaves are likely more authentic with other armies

just my 2p's worth :)
Actually I haven't seen any reference for cuisses without greaves in the 15th century. It's either full legs or no leg-armour at all. Of course I'm not really firm in the history of the hussite wars, so I'd be glad if you could give some references. But from what I have seen for german, french, flemish or english sources for the 15th century, I'm afraid the cuisses-only is pretty much a reenactorism.

On the topic: I have my legs pointed to the arming doublet, as the scarce sources suggests that to me. The references pretty much consist only of the "How a man shall be armed for his ease to fight on foot"-text; a text from 1436 by John Hill, armouror sergeant to king Henry VI. and a french manuscript, which I can't recall for the moment.....(sorry). Nothing there suggests a second belt or shoulder-straps.



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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby cloudy-cola-corp » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:51 pm

christine de pizan, livre des faits d' armes et de chevalerie - in a depiction of a siege (not Hussite but from a similar area of what we now know as europe and in correct time era) shows the army attacking to be in padded leg armour and poleyns covering the knee and just above and below and two dead soldiers seeming to have fallen from the wall one is bare footed and looks naked from the waist down apart from a pair of poleyns with no padding underneath and another in shoes and joined hoes both however are fully armoured from the waist up.

however in a depiction of Crecy and every single person is shown wearing cuisses and greaves so even so this is earlier, full leg harness was more common than incomplete leg armour although some of the greaves are only fronts with mail at the back

im not trying to undermine your research into the subject, I'm trying to say that I agree everyone doing it is wrong but in a group of 20 or so people one or two in just knee cops and one or two in just cuisses Is excuseable because you can't full out so nope that never ever ever happened, more in the case of newer members/ younger members or members that don't get out to events very often because it's expensive its how the dice roll'd I'm afraid but they should be encouraged to save up to buy greaves to go with them i've just bough't some cuisses but I can guarantee by the end of next season I will have greaves with them



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wulfenganck
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby wulfenganck » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:06 am

cloudy-cola-corp wrote:christine de pizan, livre des faits d' armes et de chevalerie - in a depiction of a siege (not Hussite but from a similar area of what we now know as europe and in correct time era) shows the army attacking to be in padded leg armour and poleyns covering the knee and just above and below and two dead soldiers seeming to have fallen from the wall one is bare footed and looks naked from the waist down apart from a pair of poleyns with no padding underneath and another in shoes and joined hoes both however are fully armoured from the waist up.

however in a depiction of Crecy and every single person is shown wearing cuisses and greaves so even so this is earlier, full leg harness was more common than incomplete leg armour although some of the greaves are only fronts with mail at the back

im not trying to undermine your research into the subject, I'm trying to say that I agree everyone doing it is wrong but in a group of 20 or so people one or two in just knee cops and one or two in just cuisses Is excuseable because you can't full out so nope that never ever ever happened, more in the case of newer members/ younger members or members that don't get out to events very often because it's expensive its how the dice roll'd I'm afraid but they should be encouraged to save up to buy greaves to go with them i've just bough't some cuisses but I can guarantee by the end of next season I will have greaves with them
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to lecture you or any of the "newbie's" in your group, I was more interested in references for the "cuisses-only" variation for plate armour; i.e. wearing harness, full arms, but then only cuisses (which I see quite often on reenactment events). There are of course illustrations/paintings - usually crucifications or scenes of martydoms - where you find the "bad guys" wearing a rather obscure mixture of armour-parts, but that seems to be more intended to underline the social outcast aspect of the scum torturing Jesus Christ/saints etc...
I did a quick search for de Pizans Le Livre des fais d’armes et de chevalerie, but wasn't successful so far, could you send a link or maybe the picture you mentioned? Thanks in advance!



cloudy-cola-corp
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby cloudy-cola-corp » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:55 pm

sorry I read not having full leg harness is incorrect. which i totally agree is right if the person has made the effort to look like a king with the rest of their kit.
but i read it as no having full leg harness is incorrect "full stop". so I miss read the context please accept my apologies. I thought you where saying anyone with leg armour no matter what there other armour was.
photos: i hope this works..



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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby cloudy-cola-corp » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:46 pm

Image


and a larger version

Image



hopefully this worked



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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby Friesian » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:55 pm

wulfenganck wrote:
cloudy-cola-corp wrote:christine de pizan, livre des faits d' armes et de chevalerie - in a depiction of a siege (not Hussite but from a similar area of what we now know as europe and in correct time era) shows the army attacking to be in padded leg armour and poleyns covering the knee and just above and below and two dead soldiers seeming to have fallen from the wall one is bare footed and looks naked from the waist down apart from a pair of poleyns with no padding underneath and another in shoes and joined hoes both however are fully armoured from the waist up.

however in a depiction of Crecy and every single person is shown wearing cuisses and greaves so even so this is earlier, full leg harness was more common than incomplete leg armour although some of the greaves are only fronts with mail at the back

im not trying to undermine your research into the subject, I'm trying to say that I agree everyone doing it is wrong but in a group of 20 or so people one or two in just knee cops and one or two in just cuisses Is excuseable because you can't full out so nope that never ever ever happened, more in the case of newer members/ younger members or members that don't get out to events very often because it's expensive its how the dice roll'd I'm afraid but they should be encouraged to save up to buy greaves to go with them i've just bough't some cuisses but I can guarantee by the end of next season I will have greaves with them
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to lecture you or any of the "newbie's" in your group, I was more interested in references for the "cuisses-only" variation for plate armour; i.e. wearing harness, full arms, but then only cuisses (which I see quite often on reenactment events). !


And I'm afraid some of us horsey types are worst for it !... Its wrong (IMO) so I personaly always wear greaves when riding in full harness



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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby wulfenganck » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:27 am

I have been checking a bit more of pictures and illustrations over the last couple of days. The earliest reference I've found so far for the "Full-plate-but-cuisses-only" is a couloured drawing by Albrecht Dürer from 1498 "EIn Reiter im Harnisch" = a rider in harness (by the way a nicre example for a painted or maybe leather-covered sallet): http://www.reproarte.com/Kunstwerke/Albrecht_D%C3%BCrer/Ein+Reiter+im+Harnisch/4030.html
Seems to be a study for the popular Dürer "Ritter, Tod und Teufel" = knight, death and devil from 1513: http://www.kunstkopie.de/kunst/albrecht_duerer/ritter_tod_und_teufel_albrecht_duerer.jpg



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Tiddles
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby Tiddles » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:05 pm

I still think there are other ways of attaching the legs using some sort of belt system.

As for the full legs or not. I think are going for the full plate then yes they would have full legs. But for lightly armoured troops I think half legs is fine.
I use half legs, spaulders and a coast of plates.

I am sure I read somewhere normally mounted Knights in full plate would reduce the amount of plate when going in to battle on foot.



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Zachos
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby Zachos » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:15 pm

Tiddles wrote:I still think there are other ways of attaching the legs using some sort of belt system.

As for the full legs or not. I think are going for the full plate then yes they would have full legs. But for lightly armoured troops I think half legs is fine.
I use half legs, spaulders and a coast of plates.

I am sure I read somewhere normally mounted Knights in full plate would reduce the amount of plate when going in to battle on foot.


Sorry, but there is no evidence for this. I thought it was the case too, but as far as the evidence we have, belts and regular greave-shunning are re-enactorisms.


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Tiddles
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby Tiddles » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:06 am

What was the posibility of the greaves and knee/upper leg not being from the same set/style?

Also I have seen illustrations of solders whose only leg protection is plate Knee Cops with just a couple of plates just below and above the knee.
The idea of just wearing greaves and knee cops is also a believable possibility.



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wulfenganck
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Re: How do you attach you legs?

Postby wulfenganck » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:51 pm

Tiddles wrote:What was the posibility of the greaves and knee/upper leg not being from the same set/style?

Also I have seen illustrations of solders whose only leg protection is plate Knee Cops with just a couple of plates just below and above the knee.
The idea of just wearing greaves and knee cops is also a believable possibility.

Well, as has been written before: there are depictions of soldiers with only partial plate armour, like a kettle-hat, a kettle-hat plus mittens or spaulders over some padded-textile armour or a simple breastplate over textile-armour. But we are looking for something I see very often on reenactment battlefield: full suit of plate armour but no greaves.
I can't find source material for that, except very late in the 15th century (the Dürer illustration from 1498 I've mentioned above).
Nevertheless I'd be happy to get more information on the picture you mention.

The Christine de Pisan reference posted above leaves me somehow uneasy, to be honest.
I see a great mixture of plate style with richly (and even strangely) decorated breastplates or sort of brigandines or even some lamellar-look-alike. That seems slightly exagerrated given that it depicts archers.
It looks like some of them wear only knee caps, but then again I wouldn't bet on it; it could as well be just a different material, especially the french book illustrations are full of full plate armour with distinctively decorated elbows or pauldrons, i.e. gilded parts.

In general: I think it is very dangerous - concerning the validity (if that is a suitable word....) of a portrayal - to base it on "logic" instead of evidence. Especially for 15th century were we have a gazillion period sources, compared to some 5th century migration era reenactor.
Both for how to attach the legs as well the side-question of cuisses without greaves.




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