15th Century pouches and bags

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Richard Scott
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15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Richard Scott » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:52 pm

Hello,

Any recommendations on suppliers for an authentic belt pouch (from searching this forum, probably a kidney pouch?) for me and a bag for missus' bits and bobs (preferably a shoulder bag, but belt bag OK if more in period).

Thanks in advance,
Richard.



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby EnglishArcher » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:26 am

Off the top of my head try:

Phil Fraser:
http://www.philfraser.com/pouchesbags.htm

Tod's Stuff:
http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/pouches2.php

Karl Robinson:
http://www.karlrobinson.co.uk/catagory_ ... .php?cat=2

I'm sure there are plenty of others, too.

Please, no shoulder bags or bollock pouches for a women. At most a woman should have a purse, either leather or fabric.


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:15 am

Todstuff and Karl Robinson do excellent hand-sewn pouches.

Also see this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17872&p=267679&hilit=pouch#p267679

for some very nice examples.

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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:41 pm

Why do you advise him not to get a shoulder bag for a woman?


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:48 pm

Just double checked on the Lardetter site and there are certainly women carrying shoulder bags, not as many images as there are of men but they are there.


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby EnglishArcher » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:23 pm

Why do you advise him not to get a shoulder bag for a woman?


Mostly to avoid 'modern handbag syndrome'. I know shoulder bags existed in period, and are found in the imagery, but many women take this as an excuse to wear a modern handbag cut in a medieval style.

If you're just starting out, 'typical' is generally far better than 'I've seen it in a picture, so I can use it' until you get a feel for the period.

My personal view is we can't be exact in anything we do so we should attempt to merely evoke the 'feel' of the period. To me a good re-enactor is one who looks like they could have dropped out of one of the paintings of the period. No garment or article needs to be an exact replica but the cut, proportions, colours, accessories, etc. should be 'in-style'. Again, this is something very few re-enactors do well. Even those who may be wearing replicas of extant pieces often end up looking 'wrong' - what Sarah Thursfield refers to as "So what did she come as, then?"

And if you want to carry lots of stuff a basket works very nicely.

At the end of the day it's just my personal opinion; and I won't be even slightly offended if it's ignored.


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Jenn » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:06 pm

Baskets are the thing for general carrying about - lots can be hidden in one too
I recommend making little linen bags for concealling things that you want to hand but don't want seen
http://www.anniethepedlar.com/ - could probably help and knows what's she's talking about
They seem to have been often oval in shape and light in colour - the darker ones are more victorian generally but I am not a basket expert.
However if your wife is going on the field as a water carrier she may want to make a material bag (or buy one) to put in all the stuff you tend to get handed at that point.



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Tod » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:24 am

I make bags and pouches, along with shoes (I'm a qualified shoemaker) and other leather items. Unlike many of the other leather workers I will make what you want. So if you see it in a picture and want some thing the same I'm your man.
I also have off the peg items as well. Come and see my stand at the ILHF.



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:00 pm

Your wife probably wants a fabric drawstring bag to wear between her kirtle and gown.

Do bear in mind that 'frame purses' seem to have been popular in England for men. As previously said, Tod and Karl have a fantastic repultation for this stuff.


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Richard Scott » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:05 pm

The pouch for me needs to be belt-hung. Would I be correct in saying kidney pouch (as I originally suggested) or frame purse as Colin suggested are equally suitable? Any comments on relative status for those two?

The one for the (future) wife needs to be shoulder-slung if possible. It will be worn at our wedding and she is dead set against having a belt suitable to hang something from (apparently there will be 'no scope for wearing a belt'). Being the groom, I don't have much say in this :roll: . I suppose I'll just have to write it off for use in re-enactment if there is general opposition to things that look like handbags, unless I can get something shoulder-slung that looks nothing like a handbag. It will need to hold a couple of asthma inhalers, mobile phone and lipstick.

Tod wrote:I also have off the peg items as well. Come and see my stand at the ILHF.


With luck we will be at ILHF, if so we'll definitely find you for a chat.

Cheers,
Richard.



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Dave B » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:31 pm

If you have the time, I'd look through all the images here:

http://www.larsdatter.com/pouches.htm

and read the article here:

http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/sitefiles/dragon-11.pdf


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby guthrie » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:22 pm

My understanding from various things over the years is that frame purses are more associated with merchants and richer folk, prefereably with brass fittings and fancy tassles.
Kidney pouches I havn't seen so many of, but what I really want is the evidence for pewter fittings for them.



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby gregory23b » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:54 pm

EA

"I know shoulder bags existed in period, and are found in the imagery, but many women take this as an excuse to wear a modern handbag cut in a medieval style."

That is not a reason not to use an item, simply because there may be some similarity.

"To me a good re-enactor is one who looks like they could have dropped out of one of the paintings of the period."

Except for when it is one of a woman with a shoulder bag?

That does not make any sense at all.

And a basket may not be appropriate at all times, the circumstances dictate the accessories, not a montage of a medieval MSS or picture.

Richard

"I suppose I'll just have to write it off for use in re-enactment if there is general opposition to things that look like handbags,"

There is not a 'general' anything, if an item is right and used right, then it is right, regardless of whether it looks like something else, look at it as an opportunity to to discuss it with the public.

Is it a special occasion? would a woman be carrying a shoulder bag at her wedding or not, if not then that is one occasion that she might not. Does her persona carry a bag because she needs it, then if so then why the heck not?

http://www.karlrobinson.co.uk/other_bag ... er_bag.php

Karl's bags look like bags, they are roomy and durable and weather nicely, ie no too much but soften up with use. I have owned two of them, they rock.

There are many other ways of carrying stuff, each to a particular context.


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby EnglishArcher » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:58 pm

Richard Scott wrote:The pouch for me needs to be belt-hung. Would I be correct in saying kidney pouch (as I originally suggested) or frame purse as Colin suggested are equally suitable? Any comments on relative status for those two?


I have a theory that the frame purse developed from the falconer's purse. All the earlier images I can find with frame purses seem to be associated with hunters or falconers. A frame purse makes sense for holding meat since you don't want to be messing with flaps and things with a handful of raw meat.

The one for the (future) wife needs to be shoulder-slung if possible. It will be worn at our wedding and she is dead set against having a belt suitable to hang something from (apparently there will be 'no scope for wearing a belt'). Being the groom, I don't have much say in this :roll: . I suppose I'll just have to write it off for use in re-enactment if there is general opposition to things that look like handbags, unless I can get something shoulder-slung that looks nothing like a handbag. It will need to hold a couple of asthma inhalers, mobile phone and lipstick.


Any shoulder bag or scrip is going to look pretty unglamorous with a wedding gown; rather like wearing a satchel. For my money (and this is what my wife did on her wedding day) is have a small fabric purse (make it a nice embroidered one and it makes a nice present!) hung from her waist under the gown. Use something like a tablet-woven girdle (nice and soft) and have the purse on a long string so it hangs low enough that, if required, your wife can lift the hem of her gown and get to the purse.

Again, purely personal opinion.


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby EnglishArcher » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:07 pm

"To me a good re-enactor is one who looks like they could have dropped out of one of the paintings of the period."

Except for when it is one of a woman with a shoulder bag?

That does not make any sense at all.


Touché :D

I stand corrected.


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Tamsin Lewis » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:14 pm

For my money (and this is what my wife did on her wedding day) is have a small fabric purse (make it a nice embroidered one and it makes a nice present!) hung from her waist under the gown.

This is what I did on my wedding day too...



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Richard Scott » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:27 am

EnglishArcher wrote:For my money (and this is what my wife did on her wedding day) is have a small fabric purse (make it a nice embroidered one and it makes a nice present!) hung from her waist under the gown. Use something like a tablet-woven girdle (nice and soft) and have the purse on a long string so it hangs low enough that, if required, your wife can lift the hem of her gown and get to the purse.

Again, purely personal opinion.


OK, I have shown the wife-to-be the pictures you posted on my thread about points, and she may be coming round to the girdle and purse idea. Unless I've missed something, the previous recommendations (Tod, Karl etc.) only have leather purses shown on their websites. Where might I obtain one of the aforementioned embroidered fabric purses? And a tablet-woven girdle for that matter! (I'm aware of Gina B, but her work, although beautiful, is probably out of our price range).



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:59 am

Sorry not to have got back in touch earlier English, you make it sound as if I'm suggesting the fella should get his wife a shoulder bag on the back of seeing one picture with a lass carrying one.
There are pictures of women on pilgrimage (including one of a Spanish or Portugese queen dipicted with a script bag-certainly not the case for a realistic portrayal) with them, women scattering what I presume to be seeds from them, and one I have seen of a Parisian with what is either a monkey or a small dog (or a really pug ugly child) pokeing its head out of one!
My wife will take one with her if we are walking around "ye medieval market" and it does indeed serve as a hand bag carrying all the modern day items (such as money, car keys, etc), just as my belt pouch holds modern cash, my inhalers and normally some form of I.D.
I admire your high standards, I certainly doubt that i look like I have just stepped out of a manuscript, I do my best, I think I look better than some but worse than others.
I did just wonder if you had some particular reason for saying that women should not have a shoulder bag when I had seen period depictions of them with just such an item. Perhaps I shall look into getting a basket for her (I don't think she'll carry one but I'll see.)


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby EnglishArcher » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:34 am

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:Sorry not to have got back in touch earlier English, you make it sound as if I'm suggesting the fella should get his wife a shoulder bag on the back of seeing one picture with a lass carrying one.


Sorry Marcus, that wasn't what I meant.

I think for the most part you and I see eye-to-eye on most topics; and your views are similar to mine.

That's the problem with forums - 90% of the communication gets lost, so what's left is open to interpretation. (Even smileys don't help most of the time!)

When giving information to people who are new to a topic I'll sometimes give sweeping generalisations - even if I know that the 'truth' is not black-or-white, but many shades of grey. I've found that too many shades of grey is not helpful to the beginner. It often adds more confusion than clarity. As you learn and ask questions you begin to understand why there are shades of grey.

Of course, to an experienced student the black-or-white answer is often frustratingly simplistic. That's when you have to move into shades of grey. The experienced the students, the more shades of grey. And, normally, the bigger the arguments!


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:44 pm

guthrie wrote:My understanding from various things over the years is that frame purses are more associated with merchants and richer folk, prefereably with brass fittings and fancy tassles.
Kidney pouches I havn't seen so many of, but what I really want is the evidence for pewter fittings for them.


I know that the Beauchamp Pageant shows several members of the household with large frame purses hung from their belt. They could be his 'highter ups', but they don't look particularly like gentry. That said, most of my research on the subject has been fairly cursory so far.

Aren't there kidney pouches with pewter fittings in the MoL book?


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:57 pm

Richard Scott wrote:OK, I have shown the wife-to-be the pictures you posted on my thread about points, and she may be coming round to the girdle and purse idea. Unless I've missed something, the previous recommendations (Tod, Karl etc.) only have leather purses shown on their websites. Where might I obtain one of the aforementioned embroidered fabric purses? And a tablet-woven girdle for that matter! (I'm aware of Gina B, but her work, although beautiful, is probably out of our price range).


Fabric purses tend not to be too common, especially well embroidered ones. It's the kind of thing that many people make themselves, or otherwise comission from some-one. If you just want the frame to put the fabric on, you should be able to pick one up at the ILHF or at TORM, there are a few traders do them (White Rose Castings is the only one that I know by name though). The frame purses were also made in thin leather :o , if you're feeling brave.

For the tablet-woven girdle, assuming that you want a proper silk one, you're looking at big money because there's a huge amount of work involved. You'll probably get tablet woven wool or linnen much cheaper, again have a look round ILHF and put a buckle onto a strip of braid. If you're willing to wear machine woven, Hertz Fabrics was selling some lovely braids at Elsecar.

Good luck


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Chris, yclept John Barber » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:38 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:If you're willing to wear machine woven, Hertz Fabrics was selling some lovely braids at Elsecar.



Just a correction: it was Herts Fabrics http://www(dot)hertsfabrics(dot)co(dot)uk.

Though the idea of Hertz Fabric Rental is an intriguing one...


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Colin Middleton » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:06 pm

:D Thanks Chris! I never did claim that I could spell though...


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Simon Jensen » Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:57 pm

You could also try Mikkel from http://www.haandkraft.blogspot.com

Here is an example of his work:
http://haandkraft.blogspot.com/2009/07/ ... purse.html

There are plenty more examples in the archives of the blog.


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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby IDEEDEE » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:07 pm

guthrie wrote:Kidney pouches I havn't seen so many of, but what I really want is the evidence for pewter fittings for them.


There are probably more about, but this is the only pic I have to hand of fittings (presumably pewter) on a pouch.
Attachments
pouch1.jpg



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Tod » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:53 pm

There is some info on the Lionheart Replicas web page, or why not ask them directly?



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby wulfenganck » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:33 pm

guthrie wrote:My understanding from various things over the years is that frame purses are more associated with merchants and richer folk, prefereably with brass fittings and fancy tassles.
Kidney pouches I havn't seen so many of, but what I really want is the evidence for pewter fittings for them.

Out of memory I think the "Book of Hours" for The Duke of Berry contains some kidney pouches with fittings.
Then here via IMAreal databank (1440 - 1500(not all kidney form 'though):

Detail from Roland Frühauf the younger: "Crucification", Salzburg 1496:
Image
The while picture can be seen here: http://kerberos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/realonline/images/7019551.JPG

"Ecce Homo", 1497, from Gampern, Austria - the guy in the left, peeking in from the outside: Image

Again Crucification scene from 1465, Wartberg/Krems, Austria: Image

And another crucification detail from Conrad Laib, Salzburg, Austria, 1457: Image The whole scene: http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7000731.JPG

St. Martin from the master of Hallein altar, salzburg, 1435: Image

Surprise - another crucification, 1420/1430, Vienna, maybe Innsbruck, Austria: http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7001062.JPG and detail: Image

St. Lamprecht church, Austria, "Meister des Stiftergruftaltar" from around 1425, Austria "Decapitation of Dionysius":
Image

There were lots more...
Last edited by wulfenganck on Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby wulfenganck » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:35 pm

Sorry, this is the whole Picture by Conrad Laib, 1457: Image



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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby The Methley Archer » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:06 pm

And to add to the list of images, although I don't know the painter or the date, sorry.
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Re: 15th Century pouches and bags

Postby Karen Larsdatter » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:01 pm

The Methley Archer wrote:And to add to the list of images, although I don't know the painter or the date, sorry.

That's from the Mérode Altarpiece (Robert Campin, 1427). I've got several more of this style of pouch linked from http://larsdatter.com/pouches.htm -- go to the section that says "Girdle purses with decorative metal mounts."

There's several images of medieval brides with drawstring purses (I think there's a bit on this in Camille's The Medieval Art of Love: Objects and Subjects of Desire) -- most of the ones I can think of are from the 14th century, like the bride (at far right) in MMW 10 D 1, fol. 150r or Très Belles Heures of Jean de Berry (BNF NAL 3093, fol. 176).




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