Advice on buying a helmet

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Jaybells
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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Jaybells » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:00 pm

Sorry for the late reply Gentlemen.....and Lass ¬¬ (you said you liked my *rse)

So yes on my new re-enactment list for next season, nice tailored hoes, tailored/better shirt (maybe) or tbh maybe a waist coat thingy :)

I'll sort out armour slowly but surely, i'll wait till i get tailored stuff tho, im 17 still growin so for now i'll go for good, but cheaper stuff just to get my self armoured up a bit :) but eventually get a suit like yours Colin :D

Ok i need yet ANOTHER opinion on something...ive changed my mind, im wanting a sword for Christmas (im drivin me rents nuts XD)
I showed you all a nice cheap breast plate on an earlier post, and this is off the same site 'The Knight Shop'... I cant spend the money on a custom hand forged £140+ sword but I still thought this looked alright, anyway opinions would really be appreciated :) Reason I'v gone for a sword is I have no weapons to train with of my own... got a £30 ebay before i did re-en and i new any better. Its a deadly sword though, no weight in the pommel and sh** steel, and after i took out the living room light and put countless holes in my bedroom ceiling i now want a better balanced sword to do it with :)


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Jaybells » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:52 pm



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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby guthrie » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:05 pm

Jaybells wrote: from talkin to a guy called Dave Rushworth he said that the more Military style was to have it that way, still covers my *rse any how :)

If its the Dave Rushworth I know who sells cloth, I don't think thats quite what he would have said, seeing as he knows a bit about medieval clothing.

As for the sword, its a perfectly normal hanwei, I avoid them like the plague due to being a bit too light and whippy, but it depends what you want it for.



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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Jaybells » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:31 pm

Oh no I dint buy my shirt off of Dave, i was talkin to him at an event we did and thats what he told me.. fact is thats all i can really do with a pair of split hoes, braes and a shirt is where my shirt out, as you know if i walked around with me shirt tooked into me braes id look like a right pleb lol, like an old men you see with there shirts tucked into there underpants lol

And cheers for the opinion on the sword, i'll be weary.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby guthrie » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:22 am

Other people have those hanweis and like them, but I don't.

Ahh, if you only have single leg hose, braes and shirt then you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, but then why have you got a black shirt in the first place? A tunic would help keep you warmer and more authentic and they're dead easy to make.



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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:14 pm

Hanwei swords don't have a great reputation, but at the same time they are safe to use. I personally find them quite plesant to hold, but I've known them break quite easily.

I'm afraid that swords is very much a get-what-you-pay-for kind of deal. If it's cheap, it's probably either badly balanced or will break easily (or just plain unsafe).

Guthrie's right about making your kit. Shirts and tunics are a doddle to make (even breeches aren't hard) and a simple shirt uses about £10 of fabric (assuming that you buy real linnen from Hertz Fabrics) and a tunic not much more.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Jaybells » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:35 pm

oh right, yeah ive seen a similar sword break before, im only really wanting it to tran with, for the field i might take on sword a buckler :)

Also yeah making my own kit would be really handy, but i dont really possess the skills to make my own, i can sew, but its the learning how to do seams and also cut fabric to size. I'll see if i can get someone from my group to make a nice pair of hoes for me, got some nice green wool that my split hoes were made of and try to learn slowly but surely how to do it. What would be nice is one of those dublets where you can remove the arms, probs in red with red one side and white on the other, i think that would look nice, although a nice wasit coat style thing i mentioned earlier, thatd be perfect for now i think.

Thanks very much guys btw ive had my boots for under a year and the bottoms are wearing thinner for some reason, any ideas on whats going on or is it just the surfaces im walking on?

Oh and is a tunic really authentic for the 15th Century? its just i havnt seen anyone wearing one.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:32 pm

For the first decade or so but then hoes get higher, tunics get shorter and become doublets, 15th century split hoes are different from 14th century chaussers, they do up around the waist at more than one point, with a coat on no-one should be able to tell your hoes are not joined.
If you really want to get a weapon of your own you'd be better off with buying a safe bill or hlberd, you'll use it more and it'll be cheaper. £50-60 rather than double that for a rather flimsy sword.
Last year I used a sword once, in one battle, because I didn't know D.R. had brought my partizan with him to Bosworth.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Tod » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:05 pm

I got into medieval a couple of years ago and even though I've been doing 18th century for years I still made some mistakes. Things to watch out for; visored helmets that touch your nose when closed, even if they don’t touch they might when you run. Bought one and sold it.
Helmets from eBay, picture looks good item is c**p, sent that back.
Soft kit made from mixed synthetic and wool fibres. I bought some hose off the peg from a well known trader. Yes they stretched but I got blue fluff all over my legs and they are mixed fibres. I should have checked but I thought no one would sell mixed fibre kit – a 100% no no in the other periods I do. To check pull a thread off and burn it if it burns up the thread and forms a small ball of plastic its c**p. If it sticks to your fingers its c**p. If it turns to soot and smells of burnt hair its wool and is OK. I’ve now noticed hoods, doublets and all sorts of other soft kit made of mixed fibre fabric, avoid it like the plague.
Jackie Phillips of Cloaked and Daggered made most of my stuff, 100% perfect fit and good prices.
Swords I’ve got some really nice ones Armour Class, MacAllen and Lancaster’s. But there is some real rubbish out there.
If your boots have worn through the soles its because either the sole is too thin, or you’ve done a lot of walking about.
I hope that helps.



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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:13 pm

Jaybells wrote:but eventually get a suit like yours Colin :D


Be patient, I've not got a 'suit like mine yet'. The new arms and gauntlets are on order, then there's new helm and bevour as well as sabatons to buy, then I'll have the full set!

Jaybells wrote:Also yeah making my own kit would be really handy, but i dont really possess the skills to make my own, i can sew, but its the learning how to do seams and also cut fabric to size. I'll see if i can get someone from my group to make a nice pair of hoes for me, got some nice green wool that my split hoes were made of and try to learn slowly but surely how to do it. What would be nice is one of those dublets where you can remove the arms, probs in red with red one side and white on the other, i think that would look nice, although a nice wasit coat style thing i mentioned earlier, thatd be perfect for now i think.

Thanks very much guys btw ive had my boots for under a year and the bottoms are wearing thinner for some reason, any ideas on whats going on or is it just the surfaces im walking on?

Oh and is a tunic really authentic for the 15th Century? its just i havnt seen anyone wearing one.


If you can sew, get some-one else to cut and pin it for you, then you do the legwork (fingerwork?). Failing that, ask around and see if you can get any training (I know that Sarah Thursfield (http://www.sarahthursfield.com) does training at a cost) to do the seams and paterns. You'll have clothes the fit YOU, not a dress maker's dummy, but at a cost that won't kill your bank-manager!

(Yes, I know that there are a lot of people out there doing very good kit either bespoke or good off the peg, but sewing it yourself if always going to be cheaper for the quality).

For England, you really want a doublet with fixed sleeves and a nice red and white coat over the top. The sleeveless things got a lot of issues attached to it (do a search on here for pourpoint, or ask me at an event) and I think the pointed sleeves are Italian (advice please Marcus).

As Marcus said, the tunic goes out in the early 15thC, but according to the MTA, a similar working garment (is it called a frock?) is worn further into the 15th C.

Best wishes


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:19 pm

Jaybells wrote:Thanks very much guys btw ive had my boots for under a year and the bottoms are wearing thinner for some reason, any ideas on whats going on or is it just the surfaces im walking on?


Tod's right about the soles (trust that man for shoes!). My udnerstanding is that authentic medieval shoes have quite thin soles, but then they didn't walk on tarmac. I use 2 approaches to protecting the soles of my shoes, to greate effect.
1. Walk on grass wherever you can, tarmac, etc wears your soles down soo quickly.
2. If you must walk on tarmac, wear pattens when you do. These wooden overshoes wear down instead, but your shoes don't. I must have walked half a centimeter off of my pattens over the last few years, which would have wrecked my shoes in a fraction of that time. £50 pattens have probably saved me £100 in shoe rapairs so far.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Jaybells » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:42 pm

Got ya :) cheers for that guys, im going to try and get someone in my group to show me how to sew and i WILL watch out for crap fabric, but yeh i'll build everything up, bit by bit :) oh and as for the sword im leaving the hand and a half for a single hander so there less of teh whole flimseyness going on, but i also think eventually on top of all that a hooked-glaive is really in order, ive only done Bill work on the field and in my opinion is a hooked-glaive i think is the best as a pole arm gets :)

obv theres so much to reply to but ive taken everything on board and i will sort myself a good helm and bevour.... also the 18guage breast plate off 'get dressed', i do like that, may get me self one of them eventually :)

The whole shoes thing, i think your right it is tarmac, i have done alot of walking around on loads of different surfaces, i may tbh get summit stuck on the bottom for extra grip in battle, i know rubber is un authentic but im just thinking of safety :)


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Zachos » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:40 pm

If you want safe then go for hobnails over rubber. Leather is only ever slippy on grass if both are very wet, at which point rubber does absolutely nothing. Hobnails are the way forward!

When you get well made medieval clothes you will love wearing them. Its so great to wear stuff that was actually made for you instead of rubbish one size fits nobody clothes we all put up with nowadays.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Nigel » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:16 pm

Hanwei sword Conquest bought one

we used it for a bit of sparring we broke it we banend em nuff said


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:20 pm

Usually doublets either have sleeves or they don't...unless you are protraying someone from the "Italy".
No-one in Italy (well apart from Savoy which apes French/Burgundian/Imperial fashions depending on who they are allied to that week) gives a flying fig about what the ignorant savages from franconia are wearing as they have the finest fashion sense of all.
Tie on sleeves are quite well represented in Italian art but the whole doublt looks different, lower neck (or no neck) slashed sleeves, even half sleeves (it's a Venetian thing as are the knee length hose they wear over garters.) Single legged hose stay fashionable for longer as well, sometimes worn with near microscopic breeches that are practically thongs. I expect german bishops had something to say about those as well.
I'd be happy to show you what I mean should you ever be at an event which the Woodvilles are at-I'm the one who dosen't look like a rusty rivet.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Jaybells » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:46 pm

ha well since i heard nowt good about Hanwei, sod it i aint gonna buy one as i was told shouldnt encourage bad armourers, so be it :)

oh and yeh hobnailed boots ive seen em, i'll try what you say then.... Rubber gripped with hobnails sounds even better :)

Doublets etc.... the continent seems to always have a weird fashion sense, knee length hoes!?!, thats weird. I have seen some short sleve fairly thin tunics aswell, reminds me of the romans, almost like a step back in fashion than a step forward to me,
.. meh.. it all goes round in circles anyway :)

been on the cloaked and dagger'd site aswell i particulary like the red and black gown on the 15th century stuff.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Tallphil84 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:28 pm

on the sword, I would not recomend any hanwei blades, I've seen one break at the base of the blade before, never seen one shatter but have heard horror stories. save up and get an armourclass, or Tim Noyes blade, they look nicer, feel nicer, last better.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Jaybells » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:20 am

At the base! wow... ive seen a hand n half break at the middle, but the base would of been the last place id of thought of.

I'll probs just keep me money and go for a polearm then :)


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby wyldstallions » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:13 pm

My brother and I got a hanwei single hander we broke it in 1 month had it replaced did the same again a month later, we were able to regrind the tip where it broke off so it was usable again, we found after a few months the metal had a crack running down the length of the blade, very dangerous for anyone on the wrong end of it had we not noticed and retired it when we did. We have armour classes now great swords well worth the money



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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby House of De Clifford » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:04 pm

I love my harness which is a mix of aplaicense, st george, white rose and dressed to kill but when it comes time to renew i would have no hessitation in going to ASH, his armour is superb, his attitude towards his customers is second to none and he researches every piece. Ask him about his recent Bosworth sallet, its lurverly!!!this was my harness at Lincoln the other weekend, my next will be full gothic. :twisted:
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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Trading-Dragon » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:42 pm

ASH?

I love his tinned brigs! Personally I'd be prepared to take one to bed when i can afford one. :lol:


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Chris, yclept John Barber » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:54 am

Jaybells wrote:At the base! wow... ive seen a hand n half break at the middle, but the base would of been the last place id of thought of.


Breaking at the base is quite common in swords used as group resources by beginners in training. If it happens to your own sword it means you haven't got out of a bad habit by making an off-line attack or parry.

What happens is that if a sword hits some obstacle (usually another sword) with the edge leading and the blade neatly in-line behind it, the impact is absorbed by its full length and the user's arm, and nothing happens. But if the blade is out of line the forces are asymmetric and the blade wobbles. Along the free length, it's not a problem because swordmetal is flexible enough to take that, but at the point it enters the hilt it is fixed, so there is a point where the flexible blade meets the inflexible (because it's confined by the hilt furniture) tang. The stresses at that point cause metal fatigue, and that's where it breaks.

The good news is that it's easy to tell beginners: "If your sword wobbles like that, it means you got it wrong. Let's look at the position again..."


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby guthrie » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:27 pm

Often the blade/ tang changeover is just a cut out bit of steel, so that you have a sharp right angle between the bottom of the blade and the length of the tang, which means it is absolutely set up to fail, since the stress will be at a maximum at that corner.



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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Trading-Dragon » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:48 am

Chris, yclept John Barber wrote:
Jaybells wrote:At the base! wow... ive seen a hand n half break at the middle, but the base would of been the last place id of thought of.


Breaking at the base is quite common in swords used as group resources by beginners in training. If it happens to your own sword it means you haven't got out of a bad habit by making an off-line attack or parry.

What happens is that if a sword hits some obstacle (usually another sword) with the edge leading and the blade neatly in-line behind it, the impact is absorbed by its full length and the user's arm, and nothing happens. But if the blade is out of line the forces are asymmetric and the blade wobbles. Along the free length, it's not a problem because swordmetal is flexible enough to take that, but at the point it enters the hilt it is fixed, so there is a point where the flexible blade meets the inflexible (because it's confined by the hilt furniture) tang. The stresses at that point cause metal fatigue, and that's where it breaks.

The good news is that it's easy to tell beginners: "If your sword wobbles like that, it means you got it wrong. Let's look at the position again..."


Interesting observation!
Could that be an issue in WMA where more often than not you deflect a strike with the flat of your own sword?


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby guthrie » Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:28 pm

Trading-Dragon wrote:Interesting observation!
Could that be an issue in WMA where more often than not you deflect a strike with the flat of your own sword?

We do? Where did you hear that one?
I recall discussion of such deflection, but nothing I've ever done says deflect a strike with the flat of your blade, because oddly enough, in that way you are in a weaker position. What you often get is edges at angles, like this \/ not edge against flat.



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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Trading-Dragon » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:24 pm

guthrie wrote:
Trading-Dragon wrote:Interesting observation!
Could that be an issue in WMA where more often than not you deflect a strike with the flat of your own sword?

We do? Where did you hear that one?
I recall discussion of such deflection, but nothing I've ever done says deflect a strike with the flat of your blade, because oddly enough, in that way you are in a weaker position. What you often get is edges at angles, like this \/ not edge against flat.


Depends, really. I find that when deflecting a strike aimed below the beltline my sword is naturally in a position to receive a strike on the flat. I must admit, however, that trying to do the same with a strike targeted above the waist does involve a lot of effort and can be rather uncomfortable.
That 'edges at angles' thing is something I often experience when I move in to stifle an attack with a quick stab or a slice across the face. Then the swords lie almost edge to edge. I'm not sure if I'm doing it right, actually - it does feel very natural to do so but i keep thinking that it can't be good for the blade.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby guthrie » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:28 pm

In the context of fighting for your life, a sword is an expendable tool. Hence worry about the edge is understandable, but not really worth worrying about. PLus they ahd various training wasters to use, made of metal or wood or suchlike. Also in my experience of mostly 15th century longsword, some Italian and a good bit of German, striking below the waist is a waste of time because the other guy will cut your head in half.



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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Trading-Dragon » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:56 pm

Good point. But fighting in a duel and fighting for sport are two different things. I'd like to think that there is some form of ideal method that applies to both but that's just my religious belief and not necessarily founded in evidence.

As for your other point - I believe people did have their legs chopped off. Talhoffer's illustrations suggest that and remains unearthed from the battle of Visby show a number of crippling leg injuries. Admittedly, Visby is entirely a different period to Herrn Talhoffer's but it leads me to believe that the leg makes a good target, especially when you feign high and then strike low or even as part of a riposte. A strike to the legs can have a lot of momentum and the wounds inflicted would instantly nullify someone's fighting ability. How do you defend yourself on only one good leg?
It can be very effective, unfortunately a lot of people (and that actually includes myself) are not very good at it.

And here's an anecdote to go with it: I used to know this lady of undetermined age who was a bit on the short side. You'd think it'd hinder her mobility but it actually gave her a very good upper body defence and most people would find that their legs became her most obvious target. Having your knees and shins peppered like that can be a real eye-opener.


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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby guthrie » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:23 pm

Yes, but whilst you're cutting my leg I'll thrust for your effectively undefended eye. Wisby I thought they were still using shields which is a rather different form of combat. I don't have Talhoffer with me right now, but indeed whilst you can get a good leg blow in sometimes, its generally not to be recomended as a major part of fencing, compared to the other techniques available, and I'm sure one or two German fencing masters said as much, but its quite a while since I read much of them so I may be wrong. And finally there's probably some tendency towards wanting to look good whilst fencing and avoid weaker secondary blows hence not attacking the legs so much as a secondary target and as I said, if you're going for my leg I'll stab you in the face.



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Re: Advice on buying a helmet

Postby Trading-Dragon » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:39 pm

Hmm...I'm not actually sure how prominent shields were in Sweden, 1361. Gotta read up on that. Anyhow, we probably have to agree to disagree as I can't really disprove that you would stab me in the face if I went for your legs. :wink:


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