Hand guns 14th/15th century

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Tod
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Hand guns 14th/15th century

Post by Tod »

I know the ones sold by Derbyshire Historic Arms but thats not really what I'm looking for.
Does any one know of any one else who is doing a 14th/15th century gun. I don't want some thing with a pretty serpent, I looking for a "tool".
If I can't find one I like I'll make one, at which stage you need to be be very scared (and yes I do know what I'm doing).

Edited note self type in less than a rush
Last edited by Tod on Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Phil the Grips »

Andy Kirkham does lovely bits of "plumbing" and forgework that can be tapped and proofed and suddenly become a working and licence-able shotgun.

You can see Dave B shooting one in the pictures section. I keep meaning to get one and then it not happening. Next year...
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Re: Hand guns 14th/15th century

Post by Fox »

Tod wrote:Does any one know of any one else who is doing a 14th/15th century gun. I don't want some with a pretty serpent, I looking for a "tool".
I haven't seen anyone making anything off the shelf that is what you want.

Have you seen Dave B's hackbut? [see Kelmarsh Harfleur thread in pictures.]

It's about as tool-like a weapon as you'd want, and although it's primative in design they go right to the end of the 15thC (in fact, IIRC, they more prevelant even then than the design you don't won't, but most people buy).

Whether you can get it back into the 14thC, and how far, I don't know off the top of my head. Dave B will be able to say.

The construction was done by Andy Kirkham and turned into gun after that.

[EDIT: Ooooo. Cross post. Spooky.]

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Post by Dave B »

He's fired it, at boddelwydan, on the friday afternoon, when we first test fired it.
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Post by Tod »

I'm surprised he missed the big cheesey grin.
I'm going to trawl some books. I'm thinking of the over the shoulder type with no or a very simple one. Or some thing like Dave's but with a stock.
The barrel has to less that 60" or it won't go in the cabinet.

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Post by the real lord duvet »

i've got some hydraulic tube in the shed.

20 bore

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Post by Fox »

Tod wrote:The barrel has to less that 60" or it won't go in the cabinet.
The advantage of Dave's design is the barrel seperates from the stock at the back of the barrel, making it easier to clean, and easier store/carry.

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Post by kayleaeloise »

Tod wrote:Or some thing like Dave's but with a stock.
hook gun? that sounds to me what your looking for?

and as for traders have you tried albion arms?

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Post by John Waller »

kayleaeloise wrote: as for traders have you tried albion arms?
Ron's packing up, or so he said at Kelmarsh. Hopefully he will be selling the business as a going concern and he plans to remain available for repair work. He has not been taking orders for bespoke work for a while and had just been retailing imports.
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Post by Tod »

Thats what I was told this week.
Directions to any pictures on the web would be good.

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Post by Dave B »

I fancy something like this. Illustration is german, about 1440.

Image

Image

I'm not sure but I think it may be iron, with iron bands, but not wrapping round the wood, and a wooden stock. I think it's a section 1, with about an 18" barrel, 30" overall? in one pick it looks like its a pretty scary calibre too.



Image

Or this fella, about 1450. If you look carfully, there is an iron band formed around the barrel at the top, then the two ends fold down straight and go through the wood to form the front hook. I think this is how the pinning might work on the top two pictures, again its a big bore.

Image

This one (the center of the three) is similar, but in brass, with the front hook cast in, and pinned through to mount the barrel.
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Post by Fox »

I am, eventually, going to make (by which I mean: have made for me) one of these:

Image

Image

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Post by Tod »

Thats the sort of thing. The word manual comes to mind.
Are you thinking cast or machined barrel? Bore? (big obviously). I know a man who could make the stock and I could get the barrels machined or maybe cast.

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Post by Dave B »

Great isn't it. Me I'd go for simple machined round Iron for ease and robustness. I suspect that one that short is more distinctively early 15th rather than mid, but there are so few sources.

Either way, some early 14th surviving guns with short barrels seem to be about 30 - 35mm! Frankly I think it would be rude not to. whats a 35mm blank charge? 500grains? / a little over an ounce?

You could scare the living whotsit out of people with that running around the field.
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Post by Fox »

Tod wrote:Thats the sort of thing. The word manual comes to mind.
Are you thinking cast or machined barrel? Bore? (big obviously). I know a man who could make the stock and I could get the barrels machined or maybe cast.
Machined, probably.
Bore? I can't remember what's on the space on my ticket (obviously too short for a shotgun), but I think I put 12 gauge.

If you're getting one made, even if it's a longer one, keep me in on it. I might get one done at the same time if that seems easier.
Dave B wrote:30 - 35mm!
2 Gauge! Unless they missed the one off on my paperwork....

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Post by Tod »

Remind me what the min. length to go a on SG cert? My police won't let add any thing else :roll:

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Post by Dave B »

24 inches. there is a question over whether that is breech face or touchhole to muzzle, the law seems to contradict itself, so from the touchole to be safe I suppose
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Post by John Waller »

Tod wrote: My police won't let add any thing else :roll:
To your FAC presumably? Out of interest why?
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Post by Tod »

That would make it heavy. But at 2 bore most of the metal will be hole :twisted: I reckon 8 (0.83") - 10 bore (0.77") would be OK.
4 bore is 0.93" which is doable. We may want to clamp it down the first few times :lol:

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Post by Tod »

John Waller wrote:
Tod wrote: My police won't let add any thing else :roll:
To your FAC presumably? Out of interest why?
Without going too far off thread. Local FAO no problem. Head office think every small barrel is a modern pistol so they moan every time I want to add things.

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Post by Andy R »

John Waller wrote:
kayleaeloise wrote: as for traders have you tried albion arms?
Ron's packing up, or so he said at Kelmarsh. Hopefully he will be selling the business as a going concern and he plans to remain available for repair work. He has not been taking orders for bespoke work for a while and had just been retailing imports.
To the Sutlers Store as of 31st October :cry:

Ron will cary on doing repairs untill he is to infirm to carry on, and he will be supporting the Sutler Store for 12 months after they take it over.
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Post by John Waller »

Andy R wrote:
John Waller wrote:
kayleaeloise wrote: as for traders have you tried albion arms?
Ron's packing up, or so he said at Kelmarsh. Hopefully he will be selling the business as a going concern and he plans to remain available for repair work. He has not been taking orders for bespoke work for a while and had just been retailing imports.
To the Sutlers Store as of 31st October :cry:

Ron will cary on doing repairs untill he is to infirm to carry on, and he will be supporting the Sutler Store for 12 months after they take it over.
Funk. I thought he would find someone decent. Not heard much good about Sutlers ref costumes and customer service.
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Post by Andy R »

John Waller wrote:
Funk. I thought he would find someone decent. Not heard much good about Sutlers ref costumes and customer service.

Well this is what Ron wrote to me.
I am selling my business to The Suttlers Stores and I am doing twelve months backing them up as part of the deal.
But someone just came back to me and said he is selling up to West Point Sutlers in Brum - which if he is supporting them for 12 months sounds more realistic by far. So Ron may have just got the name wrong in the email?
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Post by John Waller »

Andy R wrote:
John Waller wrote:
Funk. I thought he would find someone decent. Not heard much good about Sutlers ref costumes and customer service.

Well this is what Ron wrote to me.
I am selling my business to The Suttlers Stores and I am doing twelve months backing them up as part of the deal.
But someone just came back to me and said he is selling up to West Point Sutlers in Brum - which if he is supporting them for 12 months sounds more realistic by far. So Ron may have just got the name wrong in the email?
Makes a bit more sense as they are geographically closer and The Sutlers Stores in Dorset is already a registered dealer.
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Post by Andy R »

Yup, West Point Sutlers

http://www.angelfire.com/id2/westpointbirmingham/
West Point Sutlers wrote:From 1 November 2009 West Point will be taking over Albion Small Arms -
this means we will be supplying muzzle loading muskets and small arms
for most periods. Ron Curley will continue to work with us to undertake repairs.
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Post by Tod »

Fox, Dave B. If you are going to Blore Heath we could knock up a design and I'll get them made over the winter. I had a trawl through some of my books over the week end and found a few good pictures (but I'm rubbish at posting pics here).
I'm thinking of keeping the barrel length so the gun can go on a SGC. Stocked as Fox's pictures. Upper touch hole, so no lock. 8 or 10 bore.
We need to discuss the wall thicknes of the barrel and how to fix it. A band looks to be right.

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Post by John Waller »

Tod wrote:Fox, Dave B. If you are going to Blore Heath we could knock up a design and I'll get them made over the winter. I had a trawl through some of my books over the week end and found a few good pictures (but I'm rubbish at posting pics here).
I'm thinking of keeping the barrel length so the gun can go on a SGC. Stocked as Fox's pictures. Upper touch hole, so no lock. 8 or 10 bore.
We need to discuss the wall thicknes of the barrel and how to fix it. A band looks to be right.
Count me in as well. I should be at Blore.
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

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Post by the real lord duvet »

Tod wrote:Fox, Dave B. If you are going to Blore Heath we could knock up a design and I'll get them made over the winter. I had a trawl through some of my books over the week end and found a few good pictures (but I'm rubbish at posting pics here).
I'm thinking of keeping the barrel length so the gun can go on a SGC. Stocked as Fox's pictures. Upper touch hole, so no lock. 8 or 10 bore.
We need to discuss the wall thicknes of the barrel and how to fix it. A band looks to be right.
you could always try to copy Albion Arm's hidden barrel short gun idea?

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Post by Dave B »

No problems, I'll take the pictures I have and a pile of books to blore heath, and we can all have a beer and come up with a design. I'd like another early gun anyway.

Something like this perhaps

Image
Last edited by Dave B on Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tod »

Ideal!
Any one else want in? So I know how many parts get made.

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