Page 3 of 3

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:34 pm
by Sir George of Evreux
Hello all

A very interesting discussion!

*Mythos wrote:I have often wondered if ostrich feathers are correct for crests: would they have been obtainable in the C14 and C15?


These pictures you refer to are of peacock rather than ostrich feathers (just to clarify). Ostrich feathers are the big white fluffy ones! - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Herb_Ogi%C5%84ski.png

As far as peacock feathers are concerned they seem to go back to at least the mid 13th C in England, as helm crests. See The Life of King Edward the Confessor -manuscript, executed c. 1250-60. http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/MSS/Ee.3.59/index.html
peacock feather crest.jpg
The Life of King Edward the Confessor - c. 1250-60.
peacock feather crest.jpg (34.58 KiB) Viewed 15202 times

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:54 am
by *mythos*
Hello, Sir George

I am somewhat confused, as the picture to which I think you are referring is indeed peacock feathers as stated on the picture itself, and to which I made reference myself.

Nevertheless, I agree with you as to the date of appearance for ostrich feathers and would guess that the first would have made an appearance around the time of the Crusades. It is likely that Crusaders (or their entourage) would have been able to acquire them in the Middle East from Africa. Peacock feathers, of course, would have been readily available in Europe from earlier times, although I would think this is not a native bird either.

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:41 pm
by Sir George of Evreux
*Mythos wrote:I have often wondered if ostrich feathers are correct for crests: would they have been obtainable in the C14 and C15?

Anyway, a useful site looking at the use of the peacock in helm crests....

http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/polcrt/Helms.html


Hello Mythos

I have just re-read the thread only to realise that your question about ostrich crests was a separate issue to the website on peacock crests yet in the same post! I assumed that the two had become confused, and that the website was intended to relate to your question about peacock crests!

I don't think the Life of King Edward the Confessor manuscript had been referred to previously and it is the earliest I have seen a peacock crest, although this is not a subject I have studied in any depth. I hope it was of interest anyway!

As for ostrich crests, the earliest example that I have come across for a depiction of an ostrich feather as a helmet crest is from the Apocalypse Tapestries in Angers castle (dated 1375-1382). Again, I have not studied this subject in great depth, so there may be earlier examples and I would be very interested in seeing any.

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/Home/Geography/Europe/France/Western-France/Loire-Valley/Anjou/Towns/Angers/Chateaux/Chateau-dAngers/Apocalypse-Tapestries/Apocalypse-Tapestries-2.html

Hope this helps!

All the best,

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:47 pm
by *mythos*
Looking at the original posting, I can see why you were confused, Sir George, as I did juxtapose the two ideas. I was wondering about the ostrich feather as crest because it is widely used nowadays by re-enactors at places such as Tewkesbury, and with reference to your research and that of Craig1459 (earlier posting: "Petty Custom Account 1480-1: Bernard Senterion [S Barnabas Senturyon], A, 1 brl. with 6 [S C.] bundles ostrich feathers, £4") it would seem eminently sensible.

The picture you link to is interesting as it shows a bascinet with an ostrich crest, which I have never seen before. It would certainly match the date you suggest for the arrival of this sort of crest.

Thanks for your comments.

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:51 pm
by Sir John Greystoke
I was wondering if anyone as any evidence for painted Great helms in the 14th century, I am unsure weather or not to paint mine in my colours or not. but also haven't really seen any primary sources showing it

hope you can help!

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:27 pm
by Anthony of the MSS
Have a look at the Edgecote Tournament blog for some that are being made for the tournament:

http://edgcotetournament.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-crests.html

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:42 am
by JAYS
Some pretty impressive crests! Out of interest, what are they made of? Fabric and feathers yes but the rest carved out of wood? I would have thought that weight would be a consideration!

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:07 pm
by *mythos*
My crest is actually made of plastic...but don't tell anyone!

I think the norm for crests might well have been leather over a wire frame (cuir bouille): strong enough, but light also. Any other suggestions?

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:00 pm
by Mark Griffin
Lime wood, gessoed hollow leather, wicker frames all sorts. A few painting and craft treatises give instructions on how to make

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:12 pm
by latheaxe
*mythos* wrote:My crest is actually made of plastic...but don't tell anyone!

I think the norm for crests might well have been leather over a wire frame (cuir bouille): strong enough, but light also. Any other suggestions?


Mythos...I think the one you have is the one i made....Here are a couple of my latest creations made from light wood......

Image

Image

Image

Image

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:02 pm
by *mythos*
Yes, Latheaxe, indeed it is yours...and a fine effort it is, too. The only problem with buying second hand is that it requires creating comparable arms and shield and so on to go with the original. Hence, it is entirely possible that you might meet yourself on the battlefield sometime!

Actually, I have to admit that I would not put your helm and crest at jeopardy, so it is occasional parades only where it fulfils its purpose admirably. Of course, I am based in Scotland, so you are not likely to encounter me, in fact.

Making out of light wood must be quite difficult, time consuming and probably expensive, and I doubt that you would be putting your crests at risk?

I am an armiger myself and hence will eventually wish to have a correct crest made for my own helmet (once other expenses feed through the system). I imagine even knights of the time would have balked at the expense of replacing crests at regular intervals after tourneys: or perhaps they were happy to do so as a measure of their wealth.

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 9:15 pm
by Kaos Ben
Anthony of the MSS wrote:Have a look at the Edgecote Tournament blog for some that are being made for the tournament:

http://edgcotetournament.blogspot.com/2010/03/new-crests.html



Here's mine, it arrived this week. When I saw Mr. Muller's work on the Edgecote crests last year I contacted him to discuss the subject as we both have a mutual interest in the subject. I was lucky enough that he would make me one as well and I'm VERY pleased with the results.
I still need to make the mantling to go with it. I also need to polish the frog mouth so it will fit in with the rest of my armour, but this gives a nice idea about the final look. So, here are the pics:

Image

Image

Image
Handmade according to Cennino Cennini's guide to make crests, by Payson Muller in the UK. It was a great experience to work with him. I got nice updates on the sculpts and leatherwork and if there were any questions from me or him they were sorted out very quickly.
I will only use this beauty for display purposes and will order a latex one for actual use later.

It's based on these sources and various descriptions of this crest:
Image
Image
Some descriptions describe it as a dragons' head and authors as a wolves' head, and I think this is a great mix.
I also have a banner and tabard made for this device, so the set's almost complete. :)

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 6:13 pm
by *mythos*
Mr Muller has done a superb job for you, Ben. Bravo to him!

It will be interesting to see you in your complete ensemble when all is finished. Please post some photographs then.

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:19 pm
by bonnacon
This continues to be a fascinating thread!

Sir John Greystoke - delightful to meet you and yours at Peterborough last weekend. (I was the top hatted Victorian railway surveyor!!)

Heraldry in the modern world

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:13 pm
by *mythos*
It is interesting to note that crests are still extant in the modern world as part of the full "achievement" of armigers (those who hold registered arms).The Victorians were extremely keen on all things Gothic and revived the fascination with heraldry, but two world wars rather put this on the back burner for some time. However, it is becoming increasingly popular once more for individuals to formulate their own arms and to display them proudly on special occasions.

The process of petitioning for one's arms is a measured one: attention has to be paid to previous registrations under the same name, and the core principles of heraldry must be observed. It is not just a matter of looking pretty or splendid, although for many these are considerations too.

Out of interest for those who might think either of having a crest for their helm, or who might think of petitioning for arms, I add here a link to the Heraldry Society of Scotland, whose members' arms section not only illustrates a wonderful variety of arms with crests, but also gives many useful insights into the thought process behind the development of the final arms.

http://heraldry-scotland.com/copgal/thumbnails.php?album=7&page=1

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:33 pm
by latheaxe
You may want to look at this group devoted to Helm Crests...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/569046006444263/ :D

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:39 pm
by Mark Griffin
re peacock feathers, there was one found archeologically in London, late 13th or 14th. Its in one of the MoL books but don't have it to hand. Soreal ones no problems for the right kind of chap with a deep enough purse, same with ostritch heathers.

Anyone have any good period info on how to dye ostrich feathers? I know you can get natural white, black and brown but as for the garish almost iridescent ones re-enactors like to use n helmets and cavalier hats, how do you colour those? Doubt you can mordant and dye them in a bubbling vat like wool....

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:59 pm
by Errent Knight
Here's a couple of pics of mine :)


388064_10151138809842269_133691158_n.jpg
255253_10151138809647269_1267155495_n.jpg

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:34 pm
by Errent Knight
Here's a couple from Germany.

Rudolf von Sachsenhausen, 1370.
Rudolf von Sachsenhausen, 1370. Frankfurt, Germany..jpg
Albrecht II,1350
Albrecht II, 1350. Germany..jpg

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:10 pm
by *mythos*
Two superb images, Errent Knight, which are greatly enhanced by the colouring. This is a splendid source of reference for the armour of the time.

I am impressed by the size of your horns, by the way: good for the lists but perhaps not the tourney? But then it is all about show, is it not?

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:03 pm
by Errent Knight
Thanks, Mythos. From all the crest images I've seen, the general rule does seem to have been the bigger the better. But you're right about it's practicality, I just wear it for the walk out and switch to a simpler helm for the actual combat.

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:31 pm
by Errent Knight
New crest for my great helm.

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:10 pm
by *mythos*
I see from your previous posts that you have refined your crest somewhat Errent Knight. I think this is somewhat better, as it is placed on top of the helm rather than out of the sides.

You would certainly be hard to miss on entering the lists. Very good.

Re: A Gallery of Helmet Adornments and Crests

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:59 am
by Henry Kolbjorne
Hello,thought I'd share my crest i made, sorry about the quality and size of the image