bizarre weapons and armor

lucasbu · Post by **lucasbu** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:59 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:To be fair i rekon just about any handgunne from the late 14th/early 15th century could be used as a mace and would be almost certainly just as lethal (bit of a waste though).

good point, but one made specially for that purpose or two infact it's better.

Alan_F · Post by **Alan_F** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:07 pm

Jim wrote:Actually this dates from late 14thC. Article 4 in the description.

There's also (as I recall) a nasty looking 19th century version which was described as being "part of the arms of a gentleman"!

narvek · Post by **narvek** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:51 pm

Jim wrote:Actually this dates from late 14thC. Article 4 in the description.

Better double-check the source for this as publication from which the page is is slighty outdated and not really precise.

lucasbu · Post by **lucasbu** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:50 am

lucasbu wrote:as far as the ahlspiess goes, our group already has one and several other spears and halberds.

as for my original question, i found this type of weapon

my "sources"

http://www.earmi.it/armi/glossario/glossario08.htm
http://www.earmi.it/armi/glossario/glossario02.htm

if anyone can find better and more trustworthy sources i'll be much obliged

lucasbu · Post by **lucasbu** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:52 pm

set of polearms and maces

lucasbu · Post by **lucasbu** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:54 pm

could this found it's way into europe? maybe as a commoner's weapon?

wulfenganck · Post by **wulfenganck** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:57 pm

lucasbu wrote:could this found it's way into europe? maybe as a commoner's weapon?

What is it, some kind of asian sword-thingy?
Where is it from originally? How old is it? What's the name? What are its measures?

Don't get me wrong, I can understand your interest in the more bizarre forms of arms and armour, but I'm somehow afraid that you're drifting towards pure speculation.
Collecting strange weapons is....well....okay (maybe a bit misleading, but anyway....t). But the moment you explain your collection of bizarre arms and armour to an audience as a medieval portrayal, it's simply wrong.

lucasbu · Post by **lucasbu** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:16 pm

wulfenganck wrote:
lucasbu wrote:could this found it's way into europe? maybe as a commoner's weapon?
What is it, some kind of asian sword-thingy?
Where is it from originally? How old is it? What's the name? What are its measures?

asian, burma. Dha sword

http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/Introduc ... n_Page.htm

WorkMonkey · Post by **WorkMonkey** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:43 pm

lucasbu wrote:
youngish blacksmith, who spend many years making weapons and armor for others. he gets tired living the same life as his father and his father before him so he decides to go to war (enlist or as a mercenary). before he goes he makes himself some kind of basic plate armor, maybe with lames or scales for better mobility (which i know weren't mainstream in 15th C but maybe you know of somebody that used it). and also some kind of weapon, not a regular 15th C sword but something special, rare, bizarre.

Ripped straight from kingdom of heaven by the sounds of it. I hate first person re-enactment personas. If you're a poor character, like a blacksmith, or a poor "knight" then how would you get your hands on foreign weapons? How could you even be a knight without a horse? If you were so hard up that you couldn't own a horse I'd imagine you wouldn't be able to pay taxes and would have your lands confiscated? Not my period but surely on the wealthy would have the money, or the contacts to import foreign equipment? A common soldier would surely not have had the disposable income to be able import foreign equipment, and would only have had access to basic english style arms and armour, would a common blacksmith even have the skills or equipment to be able to make armour?or are you one of these mythical, brooding wandering poor knights, knighted by King Richard for saving his life once, but you've given up your land and riches to cross Europe in search of the black knight who murdered your one true love, there can be no end until there is retribution

Really makes me cringe.

lucasbu · Post by **lucasbu** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:58 pm

[quote="WorkMonkey"][/quote]
read the whole thread before posting reply!

Tomsk · Post by **Tomsk** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:33 pm

maybe not exotic looking,but has an eyebrow raising name..the "Bohemian earspoon"

http://www.goantiques.com/detail,ear-po ... 42506.html

Black Pear · Post by **Black Pear** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:56 pm

I'm with WorkMonkey on this one.

The most exotic I would go with is a Goedendaag. Been to the continent, met some Flemish troops, brought a pointy pickaxe handle home. Enough said.

Seriously, a Dha?

Marcus Woodhouse · Post by **Marcus Woodhouse** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:22 am

How on earth would a burmese fighting knife have found its way into the armoury of a early 15th century MAA?

This is SCA territory omae.

I'd consider a bardische pretty unusual for an English knight of this period. There are plenty of poleaxe type weapons around that look weird and nasty that would fit a portrayal. is there any particular reason why you are not happy to go for one of them?

A lot of the polearms in those two piccies are 16th and 17th century ones that are by that time cerimonial rather than functional.

lucasbu · Post by **lucasbu** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:23 am

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:

How on earth would a burmese fighting knife have found its way into the armoury of a early 15th century MAA?

This is SCA territory omae.

I'd consider a bardische pretty unusual for an English knight of this period. There are plenty of poleaxe type weapons around that look weird and nasty that would fit a portrayal. is there any particular reason why you are not happy to go for one of them?

A lot of the polearms in those two piccies are 16th and 17th century ones that are by that time cerimonial rather than functional.

i only asked if it was possible. for the last time, it's not english knight.

WorkMonkey · Post by **WorkMonkey** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:49 am

lucasbu wrote: read the whole thread before posting reply!

I did. Word for word. I don't know what group you play with, and what their rules are on ethnic kit but I'd imagine if you want to portray a blacksmith, turned horseless knight(?)then a burmese fighting knife probably wouldn't have been your weapon of choice on the battlefield. I believe that would be called "SCA" and not "Historical re-enactment." Since you seemed so interested in what would be "correct" for Living history then I'd stick with what was known to be used in England at the time, even the use of some of these european pole weapons is speculative at best, but using asian weaponary as a medieval man at arms is simply ridiculous. You might as well portray a wandering samurai...

lucasbu · Post by **lucasbu** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:00 am

WorkMonkey wrote:
lucasbu wrote: read the whole thread before posting reply!

I did. Word for word. I don't know what group you play with, and what their rules are on ethnic kit but I'd imagine if you want to be a blacksmith, turned horseless knight then a burmese fighting knife probably wasn't going to be your weapon of choice on the battlefield. I believe that would be called "SCA" and not "Historical re-enactment."

first of all.
i meant this thread as collection of weapons and armor, that weren't common in 15th C european battlefields.

second
central europe, not england.

third
backstory is not relevant, i made it up when i wrote the first post. it wasn't supposed there. so do not mention it again.

fourth
they were trades with far east for a long time, they already adopted some of the tech from them. so i only asked if it was possible.
as for the dha sword, it is a weaponized version of sickle.

Marcus Woodhouse · Post by **Marcus Woodhouse** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:03 am

German then? Same thing.
People did travel much more then is given credence but not that far. The Portugese have not even begun to sail around the coast of Africa in the early 15th century and the venetians and Turks have the routes through the Med and overland to Hindia/Chantaga sown up.
The Germans were busy in the Baltic regions but were regarded as being conservative and even backwards by the French and Italians.
You do see some slight regional differences in weapons but essentially a German knight would be armed the same way as a French knight or an Italian one, or a Polish, etc.
If you are a MAA you need several horses, armour, lances, several swords (for practical and show), a dagger, a mace/warhammer for use on horseback and a poleaxe for use on foot.
This seems to be the "standard" kit expected in French/Italian/Burgundian/Austro-Hungarian documents regarding mercenaries or ordiannace troops from the 1420's onwards.
I don't know much about the Spanish, they had different rules depending upon membership of military orders and chivalric orders and their heavy cavalry were commented upon as being lighter then that of other nations (with the exception of the military orders who were more pan-European).
I am sorry if I came across as rude but I also portray an "alien" resident and can vouch for the fact that if you are going to start carrying and using exotic kit you will be expected to explain what it is doing in England by MOP and fellow re-enactors and you'll look a prat if you cannot or come up with a frankly dubious back story. (And I just have different clothes!)
Bear in mind that by 1488 there were only an estimated 3000 aliens living in London and that most of these were either Flemish or Italian for instance. (And that at the start of the century there were even fewer than that.)

Marcus Woodhouse · Post by **Marcus Woodhouse** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:10 am

And if all you are concerned about are weapons that would be unlikely to find on a central Eurpoean battlefield of the 15th century then I list the osbidian spears and swords of the Aztecs, the war clubs used in the Polyensian islands, various throwing blades and axes common in India and Tibet, whistling spears made out of elephant tusks from Greater Zimbabuee, whip knives from southern China.
That I can understand as their is a whole world still waiting for the "white man" to discover that has its own specialised and unique armour and arms in the 15th century.

WorkMonkey · Post by **WorkMonkey** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:24 am

lucasbu wrote:
second
central europe, not england.

Oh right! sorry mate, stupid me, I thought we were talking about england here! silly me, central europe yeah? I should have thought a burmese fighting knife would be perfect then....

Colin Middleton · Post by **Colin Middleton** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:53 pm

If you're looking at Central European, how about some exotic (but near-by) weapons like the Bardisch or the Composite Bow?

Seriouly I'd avoid the Dha. Not only is it EXTREMELY alien, but it doesn't LOOK very odd or interesting. All you'll get from the public is "Daddy, why is that man a ninja?" If you think that we're winding you up on this, the public will drive you to murder.

Another option is to look for common weapons that you don't see at re-enactments like the 'arcehrs maul' from Agincort, the Goendendaag, the Ahlspeiss or the Fustible (spelling again), which is a 2 handed sling.

Best of luck.

lucasbu · Post by **lucasbu** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:00 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:If you're looking at Central European, how about some exotic (but near-by) weapons like the Bardisch or the Composite Bow?

Seriouly I'd avoid the Dha. Not only is it EXTREMELY alien, but it doesn't LOOK very odd or interesting. All you'll get from the public is "Daddy, why is that man a ninja?" If you think that we're winding you up on this, the public will drive you to murder.

Another option is to look for common weapons that you don't see at re-enactments like the 'arcehrs maul' from Agincort, the Goendendaag, the Ahlspeiss or the Fustible (spelling again), which is a 2 handed sling.

Best of luck.

thank you.

Bardiche looks really interesting

can you please elaborate more on the composite bow?

Black Pear · Post by **Black Pear** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:10 pm

Lucas, there are different types of composite bows but Hungarian bows are typical in their design:
http://www.recurvebowshop.com/hungarian ... e+bows.htm
This is a modern supplier but you will get the idea. Made from wood, sinew and leather (that is, more than one material, so they are "composite").

I would agree that being continental you have more variety than we English, but the Dha would be a step too far i think. The Bardiche looks nice.

Ah Colin, the staff sling or fustibal (I'm not clever, I just googled it!). Lovely. Planning to come up with something like this at some point. Such slings are underated in medieval reenactment I think. Ideal siege weapons, portable and they wang stuff a fair way! And the common or garden sling is a bit of alright too! "take your eye out for you sir?"

abaddon1974 · Post by **abaddon1974** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:21 pm

There is a forum member who makes the mauls and they look very nice, I keep meaning to purchase one but have just had to admit to the wife that I have expressed an interest in another blackpowder toy.
Hopefully Paul will give you the details and maybe a picture of one of his mauls.

Craig

Colin Middleton · Post by **Colin Middleton** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:25 pm

Thanks Black Pear. I don't know much about bows, just that I like them pointing at someone else !

craig1459 · Post by **craig1459** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:10 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:And if all you are concerned about are weapons that would be unlikely to find on a central Eurpoean battlefield of the 15th century then I list the osbidian spears and swords of the Aztecs, the war clubs used in the Polyensian islands, various throwing blades and axes common in India and Tibet, whistling spears made out of elephant tusks from Greater Zimbabuee, whip knives from southern China.
That I can understand as their is a whole world still waiting for the "white man" to discover that has its own specialised and unique armour and arms in the 15th century.

well a Romanian would be more than a little aware of the Ottomans on their doorstep carrying a kilij, which itself is very similar to a Persian shamshir or an Indian tulwar (I carry one of these in lieu of a kilij when doing Ottoman) the reason being they have a common ancestor in the Mongol Empire. An Indian-style weapon in central Europe makes more sense to me than a barbute in England, but there you go. (but not that one above, I'm afraid)

Marcus Woodhouse · Post by **Marcus Woodhouse** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:33 am

I agree with you Craig, I sometimes use a very cheap and cheerful halberd, the same as your own and they are two a penny at WOTR re-enactments (just like Barbute helmets and bardische), it certainly doesn't raise eyebrows umongst the public or re-enactors dispite being a weapon that would be very uncommon outside of southern germany for most of the 15th century.
The bardische is one of those weapons that is more popular among re-enactors then density should allow. My own research points to it being reasonably common (in illustartions-not finds) throughout Europe in the middle of the 14th century and then it reappears almost solely in Northern and eartern europe at the end of the 15th century, however its second appearence seems to show it more as a low status weapon (often dipicted by men carrying spears as well).
I've researched patterns of trade in the 14th and 15th century and even though there were an average of six spice trains a year coming from China/Mongolia the method of trade and the choices of goods would make the appearence of a Burmese knife almost miraculous.
For a start it wasn't as if there were Marco Polo type Westerners heading east and buying silks and spices in far off Cathay.
Typically a caravan left China and headed west into northern India or afganistan. There it met persian or Indian traders who exhanged good s and then these men headed back home (westwards). In Syria or what is now Iraq they would met Arab/Egyptian/turkic traders who would take the goods onwards to places like Beruit, Alexandria and Istanbul. Genoese and Venetian traders would then buy what they could and make the galley run to the big trading cities of eurpoe such as Venice, Genoa, Calais, Bruges, Vieanna, before local merchants then took it to London, Florence, rome, etc.
You are also right to point out that the Turks, Persians, Arabs, Indians, Chinese all have there own versions of such a weapon and transporting something that really offers nothing better either in terms of appearence or effectiveness would not be cost/weight effective.

Black Pear · Post by **Black Pear** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:22 pm

Colin, pointing my bow at someone else is often a guarantee of their safety given my accuracy at anything more than 40 yards!

Would there be any really local variations as in "I had the local blacksmith make this slightly weird thing for me"...? The Conyers falchion has always looked a bit unusual to me, there's a lot of metal in it and I would think it's difficult to wield. Might it be an example of a "one off"?

lucasbu · Post by **lucasbu** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:59 pm

[quote="craig1459"][/quote]

Iron Broadsword, Kilij, Scimitar, Bronze Tuck, Steel Broadsword, War Sword

Medicus Matt · Post by **Medicus Matt** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:08 pm

The first one is a La Tene style Iron Age sword, so that's 2nd-1st century BC.

The second one is a spanish falcata so again that's Iron Age.

The fourth one is a Bronze Age sword, about 1000BC?

So, whilst they certainly fit the description "Not common on a 15th century battlefield" I think that using 2500-1700 year old antiques might be pushing the boundaries a little too far?

zauberdachs · Post by **zauberdachs** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:01 pm

Medicus Matt wrote:The first one is a La Tene style Iron Age sword, so that's 2nd-1st century BC.

The second one is a spanish falcata so again that's Iron Age.

The fourth one is a Bronze Age sword, about 1000BC?

So, whilst they certainly fit the description "Not common on a 15th century battlefield" I think that using 2500-1700 year old antiques might be pushing the boundaries a little too far?

You mean it wouldn't be realistic to have family heirlooms that were passed down from father to son for 300 odd generations?

Dam. There goes most of the kit for my Highlander-Viking-Hoplite Character...