weaving/loom

[Ariarnia]

Was poking about on the internets and I came across this.

I wondered what people thought.

It's similar to the iron age one's I've seen being used, and someone used something very similar for an Irish 12th century site they recreated, but I haven't seen and archaeology or illustrations of it.

Before I ask someone to make one for me, is it suitable for the 12th century and if it's not, what is?

[sally]

treadle looms are certainly about by 1200, not sure about earlier in the twelfth century, there is a picture of one here- its only apreview of the book but you can see a fair few pages which may be useful
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=shN5 ... #PPA141,M1

[sally]

there is also a pic a couple of pages earlier of a warp weighted loom dated as late as about 1300 from Austria, so I think you may still be ok with a warp weighted loom in the 12thC

[paul atkin]

Was poking about on the internets and I came across this.

I wondered what people thought.

It's similar to the iron age one's I've seen being used, and someone used something very similar for an Irish 12th century site they recreated, but I haven't seen and archaeology or illustrations of it.

Before I ask someone to make one for me, is it suitable for the 12th century and if it's not, what is?

that would be my wifes loom then

[Ariarnia]

Thanks sally

That loom looks a mite complex to knock up it also looks like it has more than 4 dimensions... darn medieval people trying to warp time and space!

Paul - ah ha!

does that mean she can tell me how to use it/how it works or that you made it and so can make one/tell me how?

[Medicus Matt]

Before I ask someone to make one for me, is it suitable for the 12th century and if it's not, what is?

I was going to say, that's Paul's wife's loom that is!

As to it being suitable for use in the 12th century...I read somewhere (think it was the Crowfoot book on textiles) that an absence of any of the fabric types normally associated with the WWL in London was an indicator that the WWL was no longer being used to produce fabric for the urban populace.
Doesn't mean that it wasn't still being used in other English environments though. Warp weighted looms were still being used in the 20th century in rural Norway.

[paul atkin]

Paul - ah ha!

does that mean she can tell me how to use it/how it works or that you made it and so can make one/tell me how?

She most certainly could show you how to warp it up and use it, and yep i made it.......

[Maerwynn]

Hi Ariarnia

Warp-weighted looms are pretty much out for the 12th century in the UK, sorry. They'd stopped around 900 in towns but linger on till about 1100 here and there, particularly in rural places. In their place were two other loom types: the two-beam loom, which arrived late in the 9th century, and the horizontal treadle-operated loom, which probably arrived in the last quarter of the 11th century. Early in the 12th century its use was probably restricted to urban professional cloth workshops but it eventually passed into general use, with the two-beam loom becoming restricted by the end of the 13th century to the weaving of chalons, tapestries and coverlets.

A summary of the evidence is in Walton Rogers, P., (2001). The re-appearance of an old Roman loom in medieval England, in The Roman Textile Industry and its Influence. A Birthday Tribute to John Peter Wild, eds. P. W. Rogers, L. B. Jørgensen & A. Rast-Eicher Oxford: Oxbow Books, 158-71.

The only example of an excavated two-beam loom is from the Oseberg ship, though there are plenty of tools associated with its use in UK excavations.

A horizontal loom would probably be difficult for shows, due to complexity and size, but a two-beam loom should be relatively easy to set up and cart around.

Maerwynn

[Ariarnia]

Hi there,

I'm really sorry. Your information sounds fantastic, but I don't know what these things are at all. If possible can you describe/ show me what some of these look like?

A warp weighted loom is one with weights at the bottom.

A treadle loom is one with the two peddles - like the one in sally's book

What's a two-beam loom?

[guthrie]

I think they mean one like this:

http://www.regia.org/images/Loom2.gif

[Maerwynn]

Yep, that's the thing, Guthrie.

Google is a bit rubbish for finding two-beam looms, also called tubular looms or tapiters looms or vertical looms (and probably other things). There are a few pics here: http://larsdatter.com/weaving.htm. Otherwise head for a library (and possibly an interlibrary loan) and try:

Jenkins, D. T., 2003. The Cambridge history of western textiles, Cambridge, U.K.; New York: Cambridge University Press.
Walton Rogers, P., 1997. Textile production at 16-22 Coppergate, York: Published for the York Archaeological Trust by Council for British Archaeology.

and also the Walton Rogers I mentioned in my last post. The books others have linked to on this thread also cover it but may not have pics (or have pics you can only see with a subscription ).

Maerwynn[/url]

[paul atkin]

reading through several books, i cant find any evidence of loom weights from a warp weighted loom been found in this country after the tenth century, anyone out there know any different??????????????????????

[Malvoisin]

Odd neither guthries or Maerwynn links work for me.

This is a upright 2 beam loom Ariarnia:-



Am I right in thinking that this effectivly replaced the weighted loom and that in turn the treadle loom replaced the 2 beam? The book Textiles and Clothing that I scanned the pic from is a little vague as to if the 2 beam was actually used at all in medieval europe. and that the foot operated counterbalance treadle loom was used from the 11thC onwards, quite a leap in technology, looking at the complex design!

Also another thought (sorry to Cuba Ariarnia) but can you get the very same weave/ pattern on the 2beam or treadle as you can on a weighted loom??

[Ariarnia]

ok... thanks for the replies.

so, with the two beam, the warp is at the top and the fabric rolled onto the bottom.

the big stick keeps the fibres apart, what's with the little stick? what holds it in place is it doesn't reach the ends.

I understand with the weighted one that the second stick is tied to the back threads but is in the front, and that it rests on the frame of the loom, but this is hovering.

also, where do you actually weave on that one- is it between the sticks, or under them?

[Maerwynn]

Paul Atkin: reading through several books, i cant find any evidence of loom weights from a warp weighted loom been found in this country after the tenth century, anyone out there know any different??????????????????????

Yup, that's a large part of the evidence for saying that the two-beam loom largely replaced it circa 900.

Another part of the evidence is the types of cloth found, which leads into Malvoisin's question:

can you get the very same weave/ pattern on the 2beam or treadle as you can on a weighted loom??

Yes and no. The three basic weave types are tabby (over-one-under-one), 2/1 twill (over-two-under-one) and 2/2 twill (over-two-under-two). The first and the last are easy on the warp-weighted loom and the treadle loom; 2/1 twill is possible but laborious. The two-beam loom is happy with 2/1 twill and both others. So the rise of 2/1 twills in the assemblages (e.g. Coppergate, York and the London one recorded in the Crowfoot book you cited, but there are at least two dozen others in the UK alone, not all of which are published ) around 900 and their retreat around 1200 is another argument for the dominance of the two-beam loom for this period. Opinions are not unanimous on this point, though... (see e.g.MacGregor, A., 1982. Anglo-Scandinavian finds from Lloyds Bank, Pavement, and other sites, London: Published for the York Archaeological Trust by the Council for British Archaeology). And the two-beam loom survived in specialised use 1200 anyway.

The third part of the evidence is the types of weaving tools found, including the picks and beaters you use to beat the weft up/down/sideways. The distribution of types changes through time.

Regarding the pic, Ariarnia, (and I should say at this point that I've never woven on a full-size loom of any kind, a fault I intend to remedy if I can ever afford not to live in a house-share ) I think the big stick opens the shed and the little stick is effectively the heddle (or one of them, for twills). The tension of the warp threads would keep it in position. You weave at the bottom just above where the cloth is. I can't quite see how the stick arrangement works, as in theory you'd have to take the stick out and re-insert it for every other passage of the weft, which would be very laborious. Does the Crowfoot book say which original picture that modern sketch is based on? I think I'd try to find some more period illustrations to base a reconstruction on. There are two in the Walton Rogers article I mentioned in my first post but I have been unable to find either online . The Larsdatter site has some (I've repaired the link, I think).

Any weavers out there who could shed light on this?

Maerwynn

[kammcait]

Hey does anyone know of people who weave wool on treddle looms or weighted looms in the US? Possibly Chicago? I am a student at Dominican University just outside of Chicago and am working on a 12th- 14th century English noblewoman's gown. I just need to learn how to weave a sample or so. If you know anybody could you email me. Thanks!

[David Shackleton]

I'm not convinced that the 2 beam loom in Malvoisin's post would actually work set up like that (I have a book with this diagram and I've puzzled over it for ages). I'm fairly certain that it couldn't weave the cloth depicted even if it did work. I can't see how it could make the 3 or 4 different sheds needed for that pattern. However, the basic structure of the loom seems OK. I suspect that the drawing misses out a few bits to make the rest of the loom clearer or that there is a bit of artistic license with the pattern.

If heddle bars were added, it should work fine. However, I've never tried this type of loom and I could be completely wrong. The other sticks would be there to keep the threads evenly spaced, in the right order and to create a natural shed.

My wife (Ingrid) and I have woven several pieces on a warp weighted loom including tabby, basket, half basket and 2/2 twill. I agree that 2/1 twill is possible but setting it up would be a pain. 2/2 is fairly easy to do in comparison.

Does anyone have pictures or information on loom weights between the 1st and fourth centuries?

[randallmoffett]

Has anyone made a large double beam loom before? I'd love to know how it went and how it works. These were the most common for the 14th century correct?

I'd love to build a loom for my world survey course.

Some great info by the way everyone!

Randall

[Colin Middleton]

Wasn't there a big revolution in weaving in the 14th C, which leads to the appearance to the broadcloth. What was that and why are some fabrics (like linens) still woven narrower afterwards?

Many thanks

Colin

[FionaDowson]

There's a bit about soapstone Viking loom weights which may have also been used as fishing weights (bet that was grounds for divorce!) on the Time Team programme giant's grave series 10 episode 4. There's no clay on Scottish islands apparently so they carved soapstone for bowls, pots, weight, lamps etc