Strykland Muster Roll 1459

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Ben Rodgers
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Postby Ben Rodgers » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:50 pm

See I would argue the fact that Bridport is a muster roll as it coincidents with Henry VI's commission of array in anticipation of a French invasion of 1457, whilst I agree with you that it is a kit list, Im still struggling to notice the difference between the two I agree with what you saying that Strykland is a list of troop types however both 'muster' rolls each mention names of people and the equippment that they have. I am led to beleive that in effect that is what a muster roll. Unfortuantely my knowledge does not extend into the C16th and therefore I cannot debate the fact that military organisation did change.

Hence why I stated that I thought that there was not much difference in the nature of both Styrkland and Bridport.


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Postby Merlon. » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:36 pm

1457 to 1543 spans from the possible high watermark of medieval organisation through into the organisational turmoil of the later part of Henry VIII's reign. Significant changes in troop types and equipment, shifts in tactical use of troops. The initial changes to troops being raised on a hundred or county basis.

Perhaps it would be more pertinent to ask what evidence you hope to draw from these documents and what suppositions in your dissertation this evidence will be used to support. We might then be able to point you in the direction of more pertinent sources



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Postby gregory23b » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:53 pm

"Unfortuantely my knowledge does not extend into the C16th and therefore I cannot debate the fact that military organisation did change. "

You will have to, to be able to support your idea that they are similar, the mustering, payment and arrangement of military service in England changed and it would be sensible to compare the changes and map, if any changes in the nature of documentation.

Furthermore, it is highly likely that the Strickland roll is 16thc, so it should not be used as a benchmark for your assumption in addition, it is an even later transcription, so on its own cannot be relied upon in any case, ie the content is as much as you can safely rely upon, to a point.


The main general differences seem to be:

Bridport: kit list to the level of numbers of harnesses, items etc, presence of women on the roll, which points to list being an assay of who has what in the town.
It may coincide with the fear of French invasion but it may also be an assessment to see what kit is available to be dished out to those people required to do service, rather than a list of who is a combatant.

Stryckland: lists men apparently mobilised, by troop type and only whether they have kit or not, not if they have a surfeit. There are also ranks in the Stryckland list, which presumes an element of organisation ready for service etc. There is mention of expenses in the Stryckland, where is that in the Bridport?

Maybe drop Dave Key a line, he might be able to shed more info on it, I believe he has handled both documents and are part of his ongoing research.


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Postby Ben Rodgers » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:49 pm

As I cant effectively debate your point i will have to conseed, i currently have a copy of the Bridport document, so will look more closely at it, if Ive gathered from what you said is correct then the Stryckland document is not actually 1459 as orginally stated and that it is actually a transcript date much later. Why then if it is a C16th document is it stating a date for the C15th when it is based on C16th style of document as you mentioned divided into troop types. Surely then this is not a transcript but an actual C16th document. Therefore the date 1459 is incorrect or am I making a mountain out of a mole hill here.


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Postby gregory23b » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:08 pm

All I can do is refer you to Dave Key's analysis of both, here in this thread

http://livinghistory.co.uk/forums/viewt ... &start=180

about half way

enjoy it mate.

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Postby Ben Rodgers » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:41 pm

Im in my final year now, however Ive decided that being a student is too much fun and currently looking at doing a Masters, Ive sent Dave a PM as well so hopefully I will get the answer. I will have a llok at the thread as well and see what it says thanks for your help.


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:28 pm

Great to hear.

Let us know how it all goes, be nice to catch up at some time this year, last we met was year before last I recall.

;-)


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Postby Man from Coventry » Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:49 pm

To get back to the original question where are the Strickland Documents are.

I believe the indenture (which probably dates from the 1440's), between a Walter Strickland and Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury, Warden of the West March at the time is held in the UK Public Record office.

The Muster roll is I believe in private hands possibly still in Sizergh.

I haven't seen either document.

Given the names are the same. I would say so
Gregory 23b.

Not necesarily so the Stricklands like most medieval families weren't very imaginative in first names which for men seem to be confined to Thomas or Walter, so there are several Walter Stricklands .

There was a Walter alive in the 1440's and 1450's and he may have been deputy steward of Kendal at the time (Sizergh is 6 miles from Kendal and the Stricklands certainly by the 16th Century were hereditary deputy stewards of the Barony, I don't know when this was first granted).

The Lord of Kendal at the time were the Parrs and Sir Thomas Parr, fought for Salisbury at Blore Heath in 1459. Many historians have assumed that the muster role was to meet the obligations of the indenture (including myself) and that Strickland fought at Blore (a reasonable assumption considering his links to Parr and Salisbury) and the muster role reflects the contingent he brought to the field. However this is a large number for a family which at the time were relatively minor gentry.

However from the discussion above and the fact that the numbers of men from Stainton's Barony of Kendal, exactly match the numbers on the role provided by Ghost, suggest that the muster role (transcription or otherwise), dates from the from a century later the 1540's. The Parrs had left the area by this time and the Stricklands had filled the void, the later Sir Walter Strickland was a far more eminent figure and is specifically recorded as having taken 200 archers of Kendal to fight at the Battle ofSolway Moss 1542.


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Postby Ben Rodgers » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:05 am

gregory23b wrote:Great to hear.

Let us know how it all goes, be nice to catch up at some time this year, last we met was year before last I recall.

;-)


I think TORM was the last time we met, I will let you know how I get on, and it would be great to catch up sometime.


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Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:34 pm

If there is anyone in Essex who fancies a trip to Billericay there is an unpublished muster roll of the 1530's ish on display there. Never transcribed as far as I know.

The Museum is called the Cater Museum, in the high street, and its a weird little throwback, a Tradescant like collection of 'stuff'. All unstudied and due to the way the museum is run. A stuff polecat here, medieval pot there, lump of zeppelin in-between...

Good list of a variety of equipment including 3 brothers with one harness between them.

'Its Tuesday, I get the helmet!'


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:13 pm

Oooohhh

Will they allow us to take images?


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Postby Grymm » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:29 pm

Mark Griffin wrote:If there is anyone in Essex who fancies a trip to Billericay there is an unpublished muster roll of the 1530's ish on display there. Never transcribed as far as I know.

gregory23b wrote:Oooohhh

Will they allow us to take images?


Hmmmmm, I wonder if there's anything about jerkins in it? :roll:


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Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:16 pm

they wouldn't allow me to anything much. I did make a start transcribing it but ran out of time. Luckily its (or a photocopy of it) displayed in an entrance hallway where the fossilised staff don't come. They had some lovely pottery i wanted to view but the case was nailed shut.....


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Postby Mark Griffin » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:18 pm

I didn't notice anything about Jerkins.

If there was, I'd have tippexed it out..


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Postby Gandi » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:24 pm

Grymm wrote:Hmmmmm, I wonder if there's anything about jerkins in it? :roll:


surely you meant to type gerkyn :wink: hmmmmmm tasty


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Postby Ghost » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:02 pm

The Museum is called the Cater Museum, in the high street, and its a weird little throwback, a Tradescant like collection of 'stuff'. All unstudied and due to the way the museum is run. A stuff polecat here, medieval pot there, lump of zeppelin in-between...


It's amazing what you come across - I once had a meeting in Selkirk and having got there early popped into the local "high street" museum. Amongst the collection of "stuff" was a faded and tattered vert and tawney Stanley badge banner captured at Flodden....amazing.

Often wondered if it had been carried at Bosworth


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Postby Mark Griffin » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:26 pm

yes, theres some nice stuf from Flooden about.

Often wondrered why that banner was captured, considering the Stanley contingent stuffed the right flank so well. Obviously it was a real online capture the flag deal.

Rush in, garb, rush out and run awaaaaaay!!!!!


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Postby The Methley Archer » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:22 pm

'Never trust a Stanley' is qoute from a well thumbed book I have :D


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Postby Dathi » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:25 am

Muster of Cookedale and Ryddesdaile. [Nov. 24.]
General view and muster of the light horsemen in Cookedaile ward and Ryddesdaile in the Middle Marches of England in the county of Northumberland, taken at Abberwick edge by Francis Slingsby, Henry Anderson and Nicholas Forster esquires, commissioners, on 24 November 38 Eliz., and certificate of the stature colour and pace of horses allowed, and the defects of armour and horses.
"Note.—That sp. in the 2 columbe signifieth speare; p. or pet. noteth petronells; b. for bowes; lane. for lance staves; and d. for defectes." (fn. 2)
Warkworth Lordship:—
Aklington.—Jo. Robinson, William Robinson, Jo. Anderson, Robert James, Jo. Clay, Jo. Lawson, and Tho. Robinson, sp. f. d.; (fn. 3) Jo. Righ, pet. f. d.; Tho. Anderson, Rob. Robinson, and Tho. Wrighte, sp. f. d.
Birlinge.—George Wharier, Tho. Davy, Edw. Robinson, Jo. Barde, Jo. Wharier, and Christofer Elder, sp. f. d.; Cuth. Arnold, bo. f. d.
Guisonns.—George Mylner, pet. f. d.; Henry Gray, bo. f. d.; Regnald Thompson, sp. f. d.; Jo. Reede and Cuth. Dickenson, d.
Dogsdon.—Jo. Turner, George Barde, George Horsley, Jo. Burnwell, Jo. Wharryer, Edw. Broughill and Roger Taler, sp. f. d.
Thirston.—George Reede, William Day, Robte Richeson, Rich. Richeson, Tho. Tyndell, Robt. Shilverton, and Robt. Smyth, sp. f. d.; Tho. Pott, pet. f. "glead hewde" tr. gelding of 16 hands.
Overbuston.—Robte Wilson senior, sp. f. d.; Rob. Wilson junior and Rich. Mylborne, bo. f. d.; Jo. Wilson, pet. f. d.; Jo. Browell and Jo. Byard, bo. f. d.
Shilbottle.—Jo. Wardell and Edm. Horne, sp. f. d.; Jo. Gibson, pet. f. d.; Jo. Embleton, d.; Christofer Leachinan, sp. f. d.; Tho. Lysle, pet. f. d.; William Moydy, d.; Jo. Cirspe and Charles Stampe, sp. f. d.; Jo. Johnson, pet. f. d.; Tho. Stampe, sp. f. d.
Summary.—Spears furnished 37; petronels 8; defects of armour 4; bows furnished 6, in all, 55. Horses 1; defects of horse 54.
Alnam.—Edm. Hunteley, Peter Rochester, and Tho. Howye, d. d.; Tho. Clennell, pet. f. bay tr. gelding, 14 hands; Jo. Awder, sp. f. white tr. horse, 16 hands; Rich. Hearon, d. d.; Tho Davison, sp. f. d.
Bewick.—The Queen's tenants:—Gawen Collingwood, pet. sp. f. dark grey gelding 16 hands; Alexander Simpson, sp. f. d.; Roger Collingwood, d.; Robto. Hebburne, sp. f. dark gray tr. horse, 15 hands; Ra. Reveley, sp. f. d.; Jasper Fawdon, sp. f. bay tr. gelding, 15 hands; Anthony Shotton, John Gibson and Henry Tyndaile, sp. f. d.; Steven Simpson, sp. f. black tr. "meare," 14 hands; Alexander Simpson, Ra. Tyndaill and Robte. Temple, sp. f. d.
New Bewick.—Jo. Rosdon junior, d. d.; Jo. Rosdon senior, Ra. Rosdon, Mychaell Rosdon, and Christofer Story, sp. f. d.
Wapperdon.—Cuth. Allenson, sp. f. bay tr. "meare" 15 hands; Edw. Story, sp. f. d.; Henry Temple, sp. f. gray tr. "meare," 14 hands; Ra. Gray, sp. f. d.
East Lilborne.—Ra. Burrell, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 16 hands; Jo. Tughill, d. d.; Robt. Newton, Symon Bowland, Jo. Edmonson and Henry Allatson, sp. f. d.
Eglingham.—William Hunte, d. d.; Rich. Softeley, sp. f. d.; John Allanson, d. d.; Oliver Mowe, sp. f. d.; Andrew Huntridg, la. f. d.; Marke Softeley, d. d.; Christofer Ogle, sp. f. bay tr. gelding, 15 hands; Oliver Nicholson, la. f. d.; Tho. Elderton, and Jo. Clarkson, d. d.; Tho. Snawdon, pet. f. d.
Rothbury.—William, Leonerd, and Umphrey Hunters, sp. f. d.
South Middleton.—Mr Ra. Graye tenants:—John Hudson senior, Henry Humble and George Browne, sp. f. d.; Thomas Hudson, sp. f. bay tr. mare with a star, 15 hands; Henry Atkinson and Hob. Hudson, sp. f. d.; Edw. Hudson, sp. f. dun "sanded" tr. gelding, 14 hands; Robt. Hudson, sp. f., white tr. gelding, 15 hands; Edm. Hudson and John Hudson junior, sp. f. d.
Summary—Spears furnished 43, petronells 3, lance staves 2, defects of armour 13—60 persons, armours 61; horses 13, defects of horse 47.
North Middleton.—Oswold Humble, sp. f. d.; Tho. Tughill, d. d.; William Wallace, Edw. Turner, William Hewett, James Dun, Jo. Watson, and Tho. Hewett, sp. f. d.
Elderton.—Tenants to Mr Jo. Elderton:—Tho. Elderton, sp. f. bay tr. gelding, 15 hands; Jo. Smyth and Jo. Moryson, d. d.
Bosdon.—Hector Story, d. d.; Jo. Story, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 15 hands; William, Tho., Jo., Robt. and Mych. Storys, sp. f. d.
Felton.—Mr Lysles tenants:—Lanc. Lysley, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 15 hands; Jo. Robson, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 14 hands; Ra. Carr, sp. f. dark gray tr. gelding, 15 hands; Jo. Mylnes, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 14 hands; Lanc. Turner, sp. f. d.; Jo. Graye, sp. f. "grisled" tr. gelding, 15 hands; Raph Dode, pet. f. d.: John Lisle, sp. f. gray gelding, 14 hands.
Lamadon.—Mr Roger Conier's tenants:—George Bydnell, sp. f. a black tr. horse, 16 hands; Hen. Bootyman, Rich. Mylne, Jo. Mylne senior, Ra. Renison, Rich. Dichborne, William Lighton, and Jo. Mylne junior, sp. f. d.; William Potter, sp. f. "dunn" tr. gelding, 16 hands; James Younge, pet. f. dark gray tr. horse, 15 hands.
Rydesdell.—Lyell Robson, sp. f. "sorell" tr. mare, 16 hands; William Hall, sp. f., gray tr. gelding, 16 hands; Jasper Hall, sp. f. black tr. horse with white face, 16 hands; Ra. Hall, sp. f., gray tr. horse, 15 hands; Tho. Hall, sp. f. black tr. gelding, 16 hands; Sander Hall, sp. f. black tr. gelding, 14 hands; Edw. Hall, sp. f. brown tr. bay, 15 hands; Roger Hall, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 16 hands; William, John, and Thomas Halls, sp. f. 3 black tr. geldings, 15 hands; Mych. Hall, sp. f., "grisled" tr. gelding, 15 hands; Ra. Reede, sp. f. white tr. gelding, 15 hands; Arche Reede, sp. f. brown tr. horse with white face, 15 hands; Tho. Reede, sp. f. gray tr. horse, 15 hands; Tho. Hedlie, sp. f. dark gray tr. horse, 16 hands; Arche Browne, sp. f. white tr. gelding, 15 hands; Jo. Forster, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 14 hands; Arche Forster, sp. f. d.; Alexander Rotherforde, sp. f. bay tr. gelding with a "starr," 16 hands; Percyvell Pott, sp. f. dark gray tr. gelding, 16 hands; Robte. Wann, d. d.; John Hall, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 15 hands; William Hall, sp. f. "sorell" tr. horse, 15 hands.
Summary—Spears 53, petronells 2, defects 5,—60. Able horses 33, defects of horse 27.
Robte. Elsdon, sp. f. "daple" gray tr. horse, 16 hands; Bartram Hall, sp. f. dark gray tr. horse, 16 hands; Jasper Pott, pet. f. black tr. gelding, 14 hands; Mych. Pott, sp. f. bay tr. gelding, 16 hands; George Pott, sp. f. black horse, 16 hands.
"Of the Tenn Townes."
Clennell.—Robt. Clennell, pet. f. bay tr. mare, 16 hands; Mychaell Clennell, pet. f. gray tr. gelding, 16 hands; Jo. Robson, sp. f. gray tr. geld ing, 14 hands.
Bittlesdon.—Robt. Turner, and George Shankes, sp. f. 2 gray tr. geldings, 15 and 14 hands.
Netherton.—Cuth. Collingwood, sp. f., black tr. horse, 14 hands; Rich. Turner, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 14 hands; Wm. Buddle, sp. f. gray tr. mare, 14 hands; Jo. Bolam, sp. f. d.; James Bolam, sp. f. gray gelding, 14 hands.
Boroden.—"Defect of appearance."
Allerdon.—Cuth. Browne, sp. f. d.
Sharperdon.—"Defect of appearance."
Alnwyck Lordship.—My lord of Northumberland's tenants:—
Bilton.—Rich. Weddowes, sp. f. gray "stond" horse, 16 hands; Jo. Slegge, and Edw. Anderson, sp. f. d.; Jo. Hepple, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 14 hands; Edw. Hepple, sp. f. d.; Tho. Hepple, pet. f. d.; Jo. Forster, sp. f. d.; Edw. Wilson and Christofer Branxton, d. d.; Jo. Stampe, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 14 hands; Tho. Dande senior, d. d.; Tho. Alnwicke, Tho. Dande junior, and Jo. Rotherford, sp. f. d.
Alnwick.—George Fenwick, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 16 hands; George Saughill, pet. f. bay tr. gelding, 15 hands; Jo. Harbottle, sp. f. "white graye" horse, 14 hands; Jo. Metcalf, pet. f., gray tr. mare, 14 hands.
Rugley.—Jo. Saughill, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 15 hands; Edm. Stanton and Jo. Kyllingwood, sp. f. d.; He. Dobson, lanc. f. d.
Beneley.—William Storye, sp. f. bay tr. gelding, 15 hands; Henry Rotherforth, pet. f. "black baye" horse, 16 hands; George Shelle, d. d.; Tho. Trotter, sp. f. d.; Robte. Story and Cuth. Johnson, d. d.
Eslington.—Sir Cuthbert Collingwood's tenants:—Edw. Collengwood, sp. f. dark gray tr. gelding, 16 hands; Geffrey Hallyday, sp. f. "white graye" tr. horse, 17 hands; Jo. Earsdon and James Moody, sp. f. d.; William Smythe, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 15 hands; Jo. Hudson, sp. f. "bey" tr. gelding, 14 hands; Jo. Shotton, sp. f. black tr. gelding, 14 hands; Cuth. Moffitt, sp. f. gray tr. "nagge," 14 hands.
Summary—Spears, 38; petronels, 7; lance staff, 1; defects, 6; in all 52. Horse, 30; defects of horse 22.
Edlingham.—William Errington, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 15 hands; Alexr. Myers, sp. f. gray tr. gelding, 16 hands; Robte. Davison, sp. f. black tr. bay, 15 hands.
Boulton.—James Jackson, Tho. Gibson senior, Tho. Gibson junior, Jo. Huntrodes, and William Lucky, sp. f. d.; Christofer Crissope, lanc. f. d.
Whittingham.—Thomas Pigdon, Quintyne Peareth, Jo. Nycholson, Jo. Pigdon, Robte. Rochester, Jo. Browne, Bartram Armstrong, Ja. Hudson, and Edw. Earsdon, sp. f. d.; Jo. Ditchborne, sp. f. black tr. horse, "with a starr," 16 hands; Jo. Jackson, sp. f. d.
Throuton.—Henry Smythe, sp. f. bay tr. mare with white "rache," 14 hands; Jo. Hudson, sp. f. sorell tr. gelding, 14 hands.
Branton.—Cuth. Collingwood, sp. f., sorell tr. horse with a "rache," 16 hands; Tho. Anderson, sp. f. black gelding, 15 hands; Robte. Harrygate (2), sp. f. d.; John Crispe, sp. f., "mouse cullour" gelding, 14 hands; Jo. Harrygate, sp. f., "bright bay" gelding, 14 hands; Jo. Crispe, sp. f., bay mare with a white "rache," 15 hands; Peter Whittingham, sp. f. d.
Summary—Spears 29, lance staff 1, in all 30. Horse 11; defects of horse 19.
General Summary—Spears 200; petronels, 20; bows, 6, defects of armour, 28, lance staves, 4; "toto," 258: "one weapon more than men."
Total of the men viewed, 257; whereof allowed for light horses 88; horses disallowed 169,—257 "ut supra." Of which 88 light horses, there are nags of 14 hands high, 27; nags of 15 hands, 33; mares 10,—70; geldings of 16 hands, 17, and of 17 hands, 1,—18. Total 88. F. Slyngisbe, H. Anderson, Nichs. Forster. (fn. 4)
"Vera copia." Signed: Humfrey Purefey, J. Stanhope, Charles Hales, Jo. Ferne.
10 pp. In several hands. Indorsed (as title): also by Burghley.
On a flyleaf is the following memorandum:—
"30 Dec. 1595.—Mr Slingesbye uppon conference with him the day aforesaid doth explain the muster bookes of Cookedall ward and Riddesdall as a parcell thereof in manner and form followinge.
Imprimis—that whereas 'pett' or 'p' is sett for petronells, the soldior had his petronell pece, his coate of plaite, his skull, sworde, and dagger, and noe more armour.
Item—thos wich are noated lance staves, are onelye footemens staves, . . . whoe had allsoe coates of plate, sculls, swordes and dagger.
Item—whereas theare is noated: x: townes, and but fyve appeared, thother v made defalte. They are all espetially attendant to the castle of Harbotle, for any service belonginge to the said castle.
Item—the first 'd' in the columbe for armour, doth signifie noe armour.
Item—the second 'd' sett after the horses, signifieth theare was noe horses worthie to be allowed for service." Signed: Fra. Slingesby.

From: 'Border Papers volume 2: November 1595', Calendar of Border Papers: volume 2: 1595-1603 (1896), pp. 67-81.

Just to compare from the Borders in the late 16th Century. Notice lots of horses, many of which were disallowed...........




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