Strykland Muster Roll 1459

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Ben Rodgers
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Strykland Muster Roll 1459

Postby Ben Rodgers » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:24 pm

Does anyone know where I can find a version i.e book or even better the archives that it can be found as Im writting my dissertation and this would be source would be a gold mine. Many thanks

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Postby Ghost » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:45 pm

Strykland Muster Roll 1459


The Booke off Walter Strykelande esquire & depute steward off Kendal,
his servants, tenants, and inhabitants within the countie of estmerland
of his inheritance thayre.

The howswholde servants of the said Walter Strykelande:

• Rowlande Becke, horse harnes and a bowe
• Richard Atkinson, horse harnes and a bowe. (With 7 more)
• (And so, in like manner, nine servants more; with each, horse
harnes and a bowe.)

Natland

• Thomas Macareth, horse harnes and a bowe.
• Edward Macareth, horse harnes and a bowe. (With 7 more.)

Bylmen within the same:

• Thomas Waryner, horse harnes and a byll.
• Thomas Syll, horse harnes and a byll. (With 11 more.)
• Foytmen, with some harnes, others none;
• Thomas Spence; a jak, a sallet, and a bowe
• Rowlland Myles; harnes, and a bowe
• Hew Hodson, a bowe.
• Bryan Hyggyn, a bowe.

Bylls:

1. Jhon Atkynson, a jake and a byll.
2. Nycall Spyght, a sallet and a byll.
3. Robert Strykland, a sallet and a byll.
4. Henry Grenebanke, a byll.
5. James Kowper, a byll.
6. Edward Syll, a byll.
7. William Shipert, a byll.
8. Yongmen, bylls:
9. George Bowman, a byll, &c.

Total in Natland, 55.




In Stainton, in like manner, 79.

In Hencaster, 16.

In Syggyswyke, 48.

In Whynfell (that is, the moiety of it) 34.

In Wynder (Windermere?):

• Jhon Smyth; a horse, a jake, and a bowe.
• Robert Walker; a horse, stel coyt, and a bowe.
• Willam Lawson; a horse, stel coyt, and a bowe.
• Jhon Butlet, and 6 others, with each a horse, a jake, and a byll.

Bylls:

• Thomas Smyth, and 4 others; a horse, a jake, and a byll.

Footmen, without harnes:

• Jhon Wynder, and 5 more; a bowe, or byll.

Yongmen:

• William Smyth, and 6 others, each a bowe.

Total in Wynder 28.

In Hackthorp:

• Thomas Wyllen; a horse, a jake, and a spere.
• Henry Danson; a horse, a jake and a bowe.
• Jhon Chappelhow; a horse, a jake, and a bowe.

Bylls:

• Christopher Wyllen, horse harnes and a byll.
• Richard Mylne; a horse, a jake, and a byll.
• Robert Taylyer; a horse, a jake, and a byll.
• Christopher Chappelhow; a horse, a jake and a byll.
• Jhon Banke; a horse, a jake, and a byll.
• Jhon Dobson, a horse, a jake, and a byll.
• William Hudson, a horse and a byll.

Footemen, with parte harness:

• Rychard Willen, a byll.
• Hew Sands, a byll.

Yongmen :

• Henry Sawkelt, a bowe.
• Rolland Willen, a bowe.
• Jhon Taylyer, a bowe.
• Robert Myllne, a bowe.
• Edward Ayray, a byll.

The hole noumber :

Bowmen horsyd and harnassed, lxix. (69)
Bylmen horsyd and harnassed, lxxiiii. (74)
Bowmen without hors harnasse, lxxi. (71)
Bylmen without hors harnasse, lxxvi. (76)


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Postby Ben Rodgers » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:54 pm

Do you know where I can find the reference for it


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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:03 pm

Oooo! Interesting! :D

Thank you for that Ghost, worth a dig through.

Ghost wrote:• Rowlande Becke, horse harnes and a bowe
• Richard Atkinson, horse harnes and a bowe. (With 7 more)
• (And so, in like manner, nine servants more; with each, horse
harnes and a bowe.)


Am I right in reading the above as:
Rowlande Becke has a horse, a harnes and a bow.
Richard Atkinson has a horse, a harnes and a bow and will bring 7 other men with him (presumably similarly equipped).
And an additional 9 servants of Strykelande, each with a horse, a harnes and a bow.

?

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Postby gregory23b » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:08 pm

Bear in mind the Strickland roll is a later transcription, not done in 1459, 18tc and Dave Key suspects it is a 16thc roll due to the terminology, namely the use of 'bill'. see posts passim.


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Postby Ghost » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:40 pm

1543 perchance ?

From: 'Stainton', Records relating to the Barony of Kendale: volume 2 (1924), pp. 190-201


c 1543 Muster roll of Walter Strykelande's tenants of Staynton:
With a horse, harness and a bow: Thomas Barray, Cudbert Schippert, Anthony Shippert, Nycholas Denyson, Jhon Neylson, Edward Denyson, Henry Chaymer, John Flecher, Jhon Sall, Jhon Wylson Roger Sall. Each of the following
With a horse, harness and a byll: Jhon Barray, James Schippert, Henry Schippert, Water Barray, Rychard Syll, Robert Walker, Rychard Speyght, Henry Newby, Rowland Denyson, Wylliam Lorymer, Richard Wayray (sic), Harry (cancelled) Edward Ayray, Edward Neylson, Jhon Nycalson (cancelled), Kytson, Robert Atkynson, Thomas Sall, Rychard Syll (cancelled), Wylliam Parke (cancelled) John Brygges, Leonard Jackson (cancelled), Gyffray Carter, Jervyc Hyne, Walter Cowper, Edmond Neylson, Edward Carter, Rychard Fletcher.
Footmen without harness, but furnished with a byll or bow: Edmond Schippert, Rychard Neylson, John Coupertwhat, Robert Sall, Wylliam Spyght (cancelled), Nycholes Higgyn, Jhon Jakson, Wylliam Sall (cancelled), John Banes.
Yongmen furnished with a bow: Jhon Barray (cancelled), Steve Barray, Herre Neyleson, Adam Barray, Henry Barray, Roger Barray, Jhon Schippert (cancelled) Roger Forest, Edward Forest, Leonard Thompson, James Rygg, Edward Car, William Fell, Leonard Cowper.
Yongmen furnished with a byll: Jynkyn Benson, Wylliam Sutytre (cancelled) Stevene Schippert, Edward Ayray (cancelled), Roger Lorymer, Jervys Walker (cancelled), Edward Neylson, Richard Neylson, Edward Neylson, Gylles Hyggyn, Edward Neylson, Robert Higgyn, Robert Spyght, Wylliam Hyne (cancelled), Thomas Brokbank, Robert Rychardson, Jhon Jakson, Rychard Sall, Leonard Forest, Hugh Forest, Rychard Forest; Orig at Sizergh.


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Postby Ghost » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:49 pm

c 1543 Muster roll of the tenants of Walter Strykeland, esq., in Syggyswyke:

From: 'Sedgwick', Records relating to the Barony of Kendale: volume 2 (1924), pp. 177-189.

With horse, harnes and a bow: Gyffray Chaymer (cancelled), Rychard Baglay, Edward Syll (cancelled), Peter Chaymer, John (cancelled) William Mone, Thomas Couper (cancelled), Edward Chaymar
With horse, harness and a byll: Jhon Cowper, Symond Chaymer, Mylles Chaymer, Jhon Syll, Roger Lyndeth, Rowlland Grenwod.
Footmen with "some harnes": Roger Jakson, Wylliam Thommes each with a jake and a bow; Thomas Croser, Mylles Couper each with harnes and a bow; Rychard Raysebeke, splyntes, a sallet and a bow; Thomas Jakson, Rowlland Lyndeth, each with a jake and a byll.
Footmen without "harnes": Wylliam Chyares (fn. 5) (cancelled), John Beke, each with a bow; Wylliam Jakson, Robert Kocke, Rychard Chaymer (cancelled), John Kouper, Robert Jakson, John Stevenson, each with a byll.
"Yongmen": Jeorge Smyth, Rychard Smythe, Jeorge Smythe, Roger Crosser, Roger Grenwod, Jhon Bayley (cancelled), George Smythe each with a bowe; Rychard Caye, Wylliam Frier, Roger Chaymer, Jhon Hogeschon, Cudbert Hobson, Peter Haudwen, Roger Kouper (cancelled) Robert Syll, Wylliam Mone, Roger Croser (cancelled), Jhon Jakson, Christopher Thomson (cancelled), Jhon Dykson, each with a byll. Orig at Sizergh
Last edited by Ghost on Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby Ghost » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:51 pm

c 1543 Muster roll of the tenants of Walter Strykelande, esq. in Hencaster:

From: 'Hincaster', Records relating to the Barony of Kendale: volume 2 (1924), pp. 168-176


With horse, harnes and a bowe, Edward Mone. With horse, harnes and a byll, Rychard Sall, Robert Sall, Gyffray (cancelled) Mychael Parke, James Syll, Thomas Parke, Wylliam Wodhowse, Edward Sall.
"Foymen without harnes," but with a bow. Wylliam Ragg, Rychard Flecher, Jhon Neylson (cancelled), Jhon Benson, Rychard Parke, Wylliam Park, Mylles Park, Roger Parke. Original at Sizergh.


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Postby Ghost » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:16 pm

He (Strykland) inherited Thornton Bridge, the unentailed manor of his maternal grandfather, Ralph Neville, as his mother's eldest son and heir. He was assistant to the Deputy Warden of West Marches in 1537. His muster roll book at Sizergh shows that when summoned for duty in defence of the border he rode out with a fully equipped company 290 strong, by far the largest number of anyone in the county.

This may, but why do I doubt its this easy, put to bed the date of the Strykland Muster Roll
Last edited by Ghost on Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:38 pm

Given the names are the same. I would say so ;-)


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:16 am

Although it is later than the period we were discussing, I find it interesting that there appear to be almost as many men with horses and bills as there are men with just bills.

Considering horses are so expensive, does that not poke a finger into the eye of the "peasant billman" theory?

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Postby Phil the Grips » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:36 am

Were horses expensive?

The same could be said of cars today but lots of people have them and manage to maintain them to a sufficeint ( ie legally required) standard.

Plus, just like armour, they could be hired, loaned, come with a job, be of a lower/greater quality for purpose etc etc

Being a "peasant" woudl be the equivalent of a low level civil servant or office worker today- not some vagrant wandering around with his *rse hanging out of his trousers.

For comparison, mainly for interest and no real provenance for this due to economics waving wildly, spend what you spent on council tax a year on basic standard kit today ( roughly 12-500 quid)and you come out with roughly what was required for provision according to income then...


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:59 am

I really think it is wrong to look upon the men that were taken along to fight for their local Lords as being peasents in the way that Hollywood and school books have tried to portray them.
They were skilled workers and artisans on the whole. The real riff raff terrified merchant, churchman, gentleman and craftsman alike and would have been amonst the last to be trusted with weapons and armour.
Thats why I don't like the idea of "munitions" armour being banded about-it gives some re-enactors an excuse to just look like sh** and then explain it away with being poor peasents whipped away from their strip field that morning to fight for their Lord and Master.
I also think that Phil is bang on when we assume that a "luxury" item like a horse (which is a novelty and the preserve of the rich and those who wish they were IMHO) would be as expensive as they are now. You can buy a crap car to get around in that'' hold together for a year or two before you have to sell it as scrap and I'm sure that in a time when travel meant either walking, sailing or riding the same was true of a horse. You'd have had your Ladas and your Ferreis.


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:21 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:it gives some re-enactors an excuse to just look like sh** and then explain it away with being poor peasents whipped away from their strip field that morning to fight for their Lord and Master.


That was kind of my point there!

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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:57 pm

Aha! But I was coming at it from two directions. On one hand I was agreeing with your notion that the "peseant bill man" is a falsehood, but on the other I am disagreeing with your notion that it was because horses were expensive.


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Postby Nigel » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:46 am

Just to throw a rock intot he pond

Would the location be the reason for so many mounted men ?


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:38 pm

Marcus Woodhouse wrote:Aha!


Ok, you have me, were horses NOT expensive then? (Horses are not something I've ever been that interested in so I'll admit, I may have unwittingly suffered another re-enactorism!)

The only prices I can reference are unfortunately from the earlier medieval period, as listed in this pricelist (compiled by someone else).

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/m ... rices.html

I'm sure I've seen it cited here before in other topics, is it accurate?

I know that not all horses were the same, there were different types for different jobs and I wouldn't expect a man with a bill to have a destrier but still, the cost of buying a horse and maintaining a horse would surely have been out of the reach of average Joe Peasant?

Also, what would he need it for? It's not like he has to commute 50 miles to his workshop and back, drop the kids off at school or nip out on Saturday to the supermarket. I'd suggest that even if you could get a "run around" horse on the cheap ("only one lady owner, honest guv" :roll:) Joe Peasant would have no real need of it.

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Postby Jenn » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:02 pm

yes but are most of the men on the muster peasants - however you're defining that?
Footmen for example are servants in big households (and paid fairly well)
If they're named then they're mostly tax payers and therefore yeoman and relatively well off



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Postby Allan Harley » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:12 pm

My brain hurts - why can't things be simple :shock:

Good points though
If named then has some status, does location alter the mix? What about rich towns Coventry - York ...how about a comparison ?


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Postby Simon_Diment » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:19 pm

The Medieval Sourcebook was one of the sites listed on the recommended reading/sources list for one of my Uni modules back in 2007. So yes, it is seen to be reliable.


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Postby Ben Rodgers » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:53 pm

Look at a comparison theres the Bridport Muster Roll 1453 now I know this doesnt match the Strykland Muster roll date wish however, i do not beleive the standard of documents would change that much.

My opinion is that they name people to authenticate they had that many people from the relevant shires as we know that it was a requirement of people to have basic armourment, and as Sherriffs and JP's had to twice yearly check that people met the 'legal requirements' if they did not name who they had it be easy for Sherriffs and JP to claim that they had 255 people equipped and ready to fight when actually they only had 200 and therefore claim a wage for 255 people pay for 200 and pocket the wage for the 55 remaining


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Postby Theotherone » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:57 pm

If it's any use at all, here is at least one of the ways Londoners sorted out sending men to fight a century(ish) earlier....

Writ of Privy Seal to the Mayor and Aldermen charging them to hasten the dispatch of the men who were to accompany the King abroad, and to see that they were such as prescribed in private communications. Dated at Walton, 20 June, 12 Edward III. [A. D. 1338].

And forasmuch as many of those who had been chosen by the Mayor, Aldermen, and Commonalty to cross the sea with the King in aid of the war, and of whom mention had been made in the King's Council, declared that they were about to cross the sea with the King in the suite of divers magnates who hired them for wages, the said Mayor, Aldermen, and Commonalty elected 100 men, 40 of them being armed, and 60 archers; (fn. 5) and each Ward was assessed according to its size, viz., Tower Ward for 7 men, &c.
Folio xviii.
Names of Armed Men and Archers.

William Hauteyn, vintainer and centainer, finds surety for himself and his vintaine, viz., John de Mockyng and Richard de Berkyng, Aldermen.

Armed men: William de Wykham, Ralph de Irby, John de Flete, Thomas le Mazerer, Roger de Bathe, John de Riveshale, Walter Russel.

Archers: Roger Boneye, William de Cornewaille, William de Warwyk, Robert de Meltone, Richard Cotel, "kervere," Thomas Husk, Robert de Staverne, John Poyntel, John de Gloucestre, William de Tettesworth, Henry de Hontyngdone, John de Lodelowe.

William Malesheurs, vintainer, [finds surety] for himself and his vintaine, Ralph de Uptone.

Armed men: Roger Warde, John, son of Richard Talbot, Walter de Ware, John Wrenche, William Herberd, Thomas de Kymberle, Henry Pipard.

Archers: John Tany, Stephen atte More, Roger de Barwe, Henry de Grenstede, John Devenysshe, Thomas de Horselee, William Boterade, John de Kent, Roger de Herlastone, Arnald de Bayon, John Fraunceys, William de Lenham.

William de Pokeriche, vintainer, for himself and his vintaine, Richard Lacer, Alderman.

Armed men: Robert le Palmere, William Bonefay, Nicholas Jolype, John de Massyngham, Roger le Barber, John de Bedeford, Richard de Bretone.

Archers: John de Bassyngburne, Clement de Stafford, Richard de Rose, Henry Husk, John atte Hethe, Walter de Ingelond, Robert de Cestre, John Messager, William de Dodele, John Ruylbon, Alexander de Poperynge, John de Bovyngtone.

William de Braunfeld, vintainer, for himself and his vintaine, Laurence Sely, Elyas Dycon, and Robert de Knapwell.

Armed men: Gilbert de Carletone, John de Wynchecombe, John de Ledes, John atte Grene, John Peverel, Richard de Wedone, Thomas de Lenne.

Archers: William de Tonebregge, Michael de Dene, John de Kyngewode, William de Coventre, Henry Ive, Adam de Pomfreyt, John de Kentissh, John de Bannebery, Robert le Fourbour, William de Lychefeld, Robert de Ingeford, Richard Giffard.

William de Oxenford, vintainer, for himself and his vintaine, Walter Neel, Alderman.

Armed men: John de Multone, William Symeon, Roger de Engleby, Walter Sterre, Adam le Dragoner, William de Casewelle, William Warman.
Folio xviii b.

Archers: Nicholas Passour, Richard de Midlyngtone, Thomas le Pybakere, Ralph le Chaumberleyn, Richard de Brichesdene, Reginald le Sergeaunt, Thomas de Alegate, John de Blebery, Thomas de Excestre, Thomas de Piphurst, John atte Welle, Richard de Croydone.

Recept'.
Receipts of divers Wards for arming the men aforesaid, and for purchase of their guns, expenses, &c.

Of the Ward of Castle Baynard, 53s. 4d.; Alegate, 2 marks.; Bisshopesgate, 6 marks.; Cornhull, 5 marks 10s. 4d.; Queenhithe, 5 marks; Douegate, 9 marks; Bredestrete, £7 9s. 2d.; Bridge, £9 6s. 8d.; Farndone Within, £9 17s.; Vintry, 12 marks; Bradestrete, 10 marks; Chepe, £12, Farndone Without, 7 marks; Bassieshawe, 40s.; Cordewanerstrete, 16 marks; Aldresgate, 2 marks; Candelwykestrete, 6 marks; Colmanstrete, 6 marks; Walbroke, £7; Langeburne, 6 marks; Billyngesgate, £6 13s. 4d.; Tower, £9 6s. 8d.; Crepelgate Within, £6 6s. 8d.; Crepelgate Without, 5 marks; Portsokne, 33s. 4d.

Total, £139 9s. 10d"



Here http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... =33529#s38


IIRC correctly elsewhere there are receipts for the cloth used to make clotes and hoods for men being sent on campaign and also a case brought against a guy who had sold some of the equipment he'd be "given" maybe something similar was happening with horses et al at the later date?


Because there would have to be three of them.

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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:41 pm

Jenn wrote:yes but are most of the men on the muster peasants - however you're defining that?
Footmen for example are servants in big households (and paid fairly well)
If they're named then they're mostly tax payers and therefore yeoman and relatively well off


Again, that's my point Jenn. These are NOT the poor, put upon, badly equipped "peasants with bills" that people so often talk of. These are recognised men and listed by name (for whatever reason) as having horses and in some case harness too (note also that it's mostly "harness" and not "some harness").

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Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:58 pm

I'll trust those prices as a very vague guide.

Horses were expensive, but so are cars. Laffin Jon Terris is correct that your average field worker doesn't need a horse, but how many of these people are meger field workers? That also presumes that you're providing your own horse. It's quite possible that a wealthy merchant has been told that as part of his taxes, he must provied 10 men with bills and horses. In other words, he has to buy (or hire) the equipment and hire them men to do the work for him, or get hit with a fine big-enough to hire mercenaries to replace the missing men.

Raising an army is far more complex than the "You, you and you, grab a sword and follow me" idea that Holywood sells.


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Postby zauberdachs » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:48 pm

It's worth bearing in mind that in the Second Scottish Wars in the 14th centuries both sides used mobile mounted forces. Edward III continued this in his chevauchées in France.

The point being:

1. If a 14th century Scots army could afford to mount up then pretty much any force could ;)
2. There is at least a hundred years of tradition in mounted infantry in English armies by the time of the WOTR

If you throw into the mix that this is in the borders, the fact that they are mounted is far from surprising really :)


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Postby gregory23b » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:55 pm

Ben
"i do not beleive the standard of documents would change that much. "

what makes you say that?


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:37 pm

Who'd have thought an old list of names would be so much fun :D


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:25 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:I'll trust those prices as a very vague guide.

Horses were expensive, but so are cars. Laffin Jon Terris is correct that your average field worker doesn't need a horse, but how many of these people are meger field workers? That also presumes that you're providing your own horse.


Thanks Colin, I'd go further and say that quite few of the craftsmen types wouldn't have much need of a horse either- but thats a Cuba too far I feel.

I'd guess (hint taken from Jenns post) that since these folk are named they probably aren't average farming folk, I'd also guess that since they're named individually (instead of all lumped together) they are bringing their own horse and kit.

My original point was that the folks listed above were fairly obviously NOT the usual "peasant with bill" fare, I wasn't questioning the validity of the document, merely pointing out that this doesn't at all fit with the usual "poorly equipped=billman" type idea that Hollywood (and apparently lots of others) subscribe to.

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Postby Ben Rodgers » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:10 pm

gregory23b wrote:Ben
"i do not beleive the standard of documents would change that much. "

what makes you say that?


The Reason I say that is from my research I havnt seen a massive difference in the standard of muster roll, looking at the agincourt rolls, the bridport and the strykland they all convey the same information the name of the person, what equipment they have.

Ultimately the purpose of these documents didnt change either they were in effect audits of who was available to fight and what people had equipment wise therefore the standard of the document would need only to change minorly if at all


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Postby gregory23b » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:34 pm

The Bridport list is not a muster roll, nor is there much evidence to support it as such, the format is different as the list of entries and what they have are not the same. Bridport has a kit list per person, the Strickland is listed per combat type, one is 15thc and one is 16thc, we know that military organisation changed in the 16thc.

The Strickland says more about possible organisation than kit, the Bridport document seems to suggest the opposite, ie the emphasis and purpose of the documents are different. Hence my question.


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