Battle idea

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behanner
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Battle idea

Postby behanner » Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:15 pm

The too many billman in WOR re-enactment issue came up on another board and someone said that they were an archer but went to billman because they rarely got to fight when he was an archer.

So here is my idea and please read the whole thing before you judge it. Start the battle off with the archery volleys, if someone gets hit by an arrow unless they are in full harness they go down dead. Once the archery volleys are done and the advances begin those who are alive advance as the vangaurd and those who were dead and archers wishing to fight form up and advance as a back rank. That way you give some nod to the archers and give them some effectivness or atleast percieved effectiveness. As the crowds eyes move towards the battle in the middle the dead people getting up and reforming don't seem appear as obvious. People who want to fight get the chance to fight even if they were an archer or were shot by arrows and died.



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Postby matlot » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:09 pm

ideal in theory but most archers dont like the blocks trampling all over there arrows as all arrows broken would have to be replaced and i would be worryed about arrows going in to crowds


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Postby guthrie » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:06 pm

Sometimes something similar gets done, its just a matter of enforcing discipline amongst groups. But it should be obvious by now that re-enacting is not organised along military lines...



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Postby m300572 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:30 pm

Thought on arrows getting broken- budget (say) £100 for each event and spend it on arrows - issue the event arrows at the start and collect the survivors at the end - next event get another £100 worth of arows and issue with the survivors of the previous events. You should end up with a fair number of "event" arrows rather than everyone buying and bringing their own (which I assume is what happens at the moment).

For comparison, ECWS musket and artillery don't buy their own powder, it comes from the sponsors payment for the event.


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Postby Simon_Diment » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:32 pm

m300572
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject:
Thought on arrows getting broken- budget (say) £100 for each event and spend it on arrows - issue the event arrows at the start and collect the survivors at the end - next event get another £100 worth of arows and issue with the survivors of the previous events. You should end up with a fair number of "event" arrows rather than everyone buying and bringing their own (which I assume is what happens at the moment).


In principle a cracking idea, but the reality is that £100 won't go far - you'll find authentically looking fletched arrows at the market for £3.00 each but then you have to buy the blunt for say 70p that'll get you approx 30 arrows.

For Conquest stock I paid c£180 for the bits to make up 100 arrows and that was as a bulk purchase, then it's down to my time and effort to produce the finished items. Two dozen arrows minimum for four archers and that's your lot, cheapest I can make 'em up for.

If you want stock items for a mass battle then it's a real problem, if the loss rate isn't excessive then you'd be able to build up a stock eventually but then you need someone to maintain and store/transport them.


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Postby craig1459 » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:07 pm

We do random injuries/deaths when guns/arrows are fired/loosed but it really only looks effective in smaller shows. It would have looked daft(er) at Bosworth if only one man had gone down - we need a three-line whip!


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Postby hazy » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:22 pm

Feel free to say if I'm wrong, as I'm not a fighter, but would it really be correct for everyone not in full harness to fall under arrow fire? Just thinking, as although hardly any of our fighters are in full tin, they are still pretty heavily armoured, whether brigs or a combination of other protection, so it just doesn't seem a) right that everyone not in tin would be killed by arrow fire- theres a lot of other armour which could deflect an arrow and b) obviously every arrow wouldn't hit a target.

I do agree more people should go down to arrow fire though, perhaps we could have a random number go down and then collect them on the retreat, so they don't miss too much of the fight?



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Postby Allan Harley » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:55 am

Personally feel that this idea has merit and may be attempted this year - (more likely 2009). The idea of exchanges where troops react to archery, hits, cannon only adds to the display. But is does mean that groups/units have to work closely together as at certain times you may end up fighting in mixed units (not all of your own).

The issue of armour is contentious, what would stop an arrow and what wouldn't - this is an issue that needs to be considered carefully


Arrows are one of the issues and looking to budget for them from the sponsors payments - but this does reduce payments to groups overall. A reasonab;y sized event you would expect between 50 and 100 broken/lost.


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Postby gregory23b » Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:27 pm

If arrows are seen in the same light as gunpowder, ie :

impressive to the crowd through their impact

consumables that are paid for out of event fees

then you budget accordingly and expect there to be breakages.


I know the pain of fletching blunt arrows, not just doing them, but doing them because somehow many people suddenly find themselves rather busy at arrow making time. Simon, you have my sympathy mate ;-)

They should not be viewed as personal property but ammunition, which is exactly what they are. With that comes the responsibility of maintenance and checking and making. Many hands make light work, an hour of time making arrows or replacing them is time well spent.

I would also argue that all people on the field benefit from their use so it is not inconceivable that other non-archers might want to make them up.

You can mitigate arrow damage by having an idea where the actual hand t hand fighting is talking place, if the arrows are loosed at one position, ideally at the enemy not in melee, then there is a good chance that the actual point of contact wont be where the arrows are most - depending on the script.

You could also ensure that arrows are gathered up at the end of the phase of shooting before melee, that tied in with readying any combat archers, support soldiers attached, for example pole arm users maneuvering in front of archers while they sort themselves out, can all be part of the flow of battle and arrows to be gathered by non-fighting archers before the next engagement.


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Postby Allan Harley » Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:36 pm

There is also the view that with several regular events staging 2 battlesa day you could do one fully armoured and the other arching.

best of both worlds :D


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Postby behanner » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:31 pm

Originally when I got the idea and before I posted it in regards to the armour I was thinking that anyone who got hit where they did not have armour went down. Honestly I would say that in regards to this it may be something that will need to be played with and tweeked. The battles are suppose to be shows for the public and while they should be fun for the partcipants the public also should be kept in mind so somewhere there will be a balance between the two.

As for arrows it would seem to me since they already have rubber tips on the end so cut as many corners as is reasonable for an items whose main purpose is to be seen a 20' flying through the air. Plus what a great reason for people to get together during the off season then for arrow making parties.



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Postby Man from Coventry » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:26 am

m300572
Thought on arrows getting broken- budget (say) £100 for each event and spend it on arrows - issue the event arrows at the start and collect the survivors at the end - next event get another £100 worth of arows and issue with the survivors of the previous events. You should end up with a fair number of "event" arrows rather than everyone buying and bringing their own (which I assume is what happens at the moment).


Mr 23b
They should not be viewed as personal property but ammunition, which is exactly what they are. With that comes the responsibility of maintenance and checking and making. Many hands make light work, an hour of time making arrows or replacing them is time well spent.


This view is a little behind the times as this is in effect what has already been happening in the Fed for the last 3 years. Fed groups supply their own arrows currently a minimum of 6 per archer, when broken (and groups must prove breakages with the pieces) the Fed will play £2.25 for them to be replaced. Typically this works out at more than £100, particularly for large battle events. Given that it is rare that arrows are total losses (i.e parts can be cannibalised can be used to repair other arrows this has allowed most Fed groups to increase their arrow stock. Individual group ownership ensures that the arrows are looked after and spreads the workload of repairs. This enlightened system ensures that there is always a good stock of at Fed events.


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Postby Man from Coventry » Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:44 am

Hazy
I do agree more people should go down to arrow fire though, perhaps we could have a random number go down and then collect them on the retreat, so they don't miss too much of the fight?


This has already been tried and indeed one battle (Blore) has this specifically written into the script (for the last 4 years) in that it has an abortive first attack, which is decimated by archery and cannon fire and then a deliberate lull in which the casualties can be recovered, by non-combatants and survivors, ready to fight again in the later stages of the battle. Thus ensuring that we can have both casualties from the guns and archers i.e realism, whilst still ensuring that everyone gets a good scrap.

The difficulty has been in the execution - actually getting people to go down and stay down, invariably the attack rolls in a very few people go down and when it rolls back the field is hoovered clean. We'll be trying out new casualty systems this year to try and improve it.

However I'm hopeful that at this years Blore will have more success.

I think there has been something of a sea-change this year many of the better groups are putting more effort in and realising that a good show is important and that a good show and an enjoyable fight are not incompatible, particularly with a good creative script - you can have both. Rufford, Bosworth & Kenilworth are good examples.

Quite a bit on these points has already been said in the "How to do Battles better" and "safe, authentic battles threads" which bears re-reading.


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Postby m300572 » Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:56 pm

Fairy Nuff Mr From Coventry - I come into this as someone isn't a participant in Medieval Re-enactment. I was looking at the comments with a perspective of English Civil War groups. So a large enough budget set aside for arrows and a regular replacement/salvage should allow archers to have enough to produce a real arrow hail - from a MoP perspective 6 per archer is a seriously low number when the expectation from books and films is for a dozen in the air at a time from each archer! :shock: :lol: :lol:


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Postby Man from Coventry » Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:49 pm

I should add that 6 is the minimum number of arrows (and this is likely to rise in future years as this requirement has been introduced relatively recently), in practice most groups, particularly those with a strong archery interest such as the Savilles, Woodvilles and Beauforts (ex Coventries) supply considerably more (perhaps partly in response to this policy). A standard part of the usual firepower display involves a speed shoot, in which typically 12-18 arrows are shot per man and there is rarely a shortage.


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Postby Fox » Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:00 pm

Typically I provide 20 or so blunts to every battle I attend.
This is only worthy of mention because I have never fired a blunt in my life. I own them against an a shortage of arrows at one of the battles I'm running where I've scripted archery.

Sometimes, such as Blore last year when Stanleys borrowed them, my group does not even have an archer on the field.



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Postby John Waller » Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:39 pm

Man from Coventry wrote:This view is a little behind the times as this is in effect what has already been happening in the Fed for the last 3 years. Fed groups supply their own arrows currently a minimum of 6 per archer, when broken (and groups must prove breakages with the pieces) the Fed will play £2.25 for them to be replaced. Typically this works out at more than £100, particularly for large battle events. Given that it is rare that arrows are total losses (i.e parts can be cannibalised can be used to repair other arrows this has allowed most Fed groups to increase their arrow stock. Individual group ownership ensures that the arrows are looked after and spreads the workload of repairs. This enlightened system ensures that there is always a good stock of at Fed events.


Is that so? I must have a word with my Fed group leader as I'm an arrow chucker and I don't think we have any despite me offering to make some.

BTW sounds like an excellent idea. Never heard of it though. Ditto the Fed arrow spec which is supposed to exist.


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Postby Man from Coventry » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:26 pm

I would have a few words if I were you.

To my knowledge the 6 minimum was introduced at this years AGM (I'm sure Mr Harley will correct me if I'm wrong), the breakage policy has been around 2/3 years.

The Fed arrow spec also exists (mainly stipulates the minimum and prefered flight sizes to avoid injuries from speed blunts) adopted this year and each group has to complete an arrow ID form - so arrows can be returned to the appropriate group.


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Postby gregory23b » Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:02 pm

"This view is a little behind the times as this is in effect what has already been happening in the Fed for the last 3 years. Fed groups supply their own arrows currently a minimum of 6 per archer, when broken (and groups must prove breakages with the pieces) the Fed will play £2.25 for them to be replaced. Typically this works out at more than £100, particularly for large battle events. Given that it is rare that arrows are total losses (i.e parts can be cannibalised can be used to repair other arrows this has allowed most Fed groups to increase their arrow stock. Individual group ownership ensures that the arrows are looked after and spreads the workload of repairs. This enlightened system ensures that there is always a good stock of at Fed events."


Even better then Man from Coventry ;-)


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Postby Allan Harley » Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:29 am

Fed Spec was adopted last year but allows groups time to phase in to this since allowing for wastage at events.
Contact your captain
Breakages are paid to group from expenses on proof of damage - show to Treasurer/Archer Captain at events

Minimum is 6 - hoping to increase up to a minimum of 12 working towards 20/24

More ideas to come - further developments at Blore (watch this space or alternatively become part of it)


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Postby John Waller » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:23 pm

Allan Harley wrote:Fed Spec was adopted last year but allows groups time to phase in to this since allowing for wastage at events.
Contact your captain
Breakages are paid to group from expenses on proof of damage - show to Treasurer/Archer Captain at events

Minimum is 6 - hoping to increase up to a minimum of 12 working towards 20/24

More ideas to come - further developments at Blore (watch this space or alternatively become part of it)


Good stuff Allan. I'll bend Steve's ear at Cliveden and hope to make it to Blore.


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Postby Ben Rodgers » Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:41 am

GOing bk to the idea battle something ive seen dun at my uni and im assuming it would only work for battles that were not reenacting a historic battle like blore or bosworth where if someone is hit in the arm or leg they take the hit and drop back hit in the stomach then u drop dead I dont no how this would work on a large scale or if it would work for C15th stuff but it be interesting to see if it worked or not. This way u get a constant casulaty rate and maybe mo0re interest to public, however its an idea, im sure there something glarely obvious ive missed


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Postby Man from Coventry » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:19 pm

This system loosely known as "taking your hits" has been around for many years and it is supposed to be what generally applies i.e it is the basic system, but there are many difficulties with it,
i.e
- what constitutes a hit any contact with a weapon or a solider blow, do arrows count ,
- what is the effect of armour i.e does the hit count because it hit my well armoured breastplate, rather than my unarmoured thigh,
- does an arm hit count as much as a body hit.
-Above all it requires a high degree of honesty there is always the temptation to shrug off hits - particularly if you don't think you've had a good share of a fight, as maybe the case if your shot by an arrow before the sides have even closed.
- there is always a problem with some "Captain Invulnerables" who do not take their hits.

However if you responded to every hit battles would be over very quickly, given the limited numbers of participants we have available.


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