1250 Knights Hospitaller

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sabrewolfe
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1250 Knights Hospitaller

Postby sabrewolfe » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:07 pm

Ok so currently got kit on the go for doing a Knights Hospitaller circa 1250.
So far Ive got my split legged hoes sorted, my braies (sp) Aketon, Gambeson, Chainmail haulberk, polearm, sword and kettle helm and shield and it looks ok in the image below(my best side according to Panda ) The only few things I need to sort out is a coif, chauses (maybe) and a Cappa. The cappa is the one thing I have not got a clue about I bought material for it ages ago and never got around to making it, the period im aiming for (as far as I know) Hospitallers had not yet adopted military surcoats (which i think happened 20ish years later). Does anybody have any ideas? Is there things I have missing from my list of kit? Another question I have on a Hospitaller of this period is would they have had a white cross on their gambeson and if so where? Would it be central over the heart or on the right how big would it be ? What style would it be?
Any ideas please folks
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Malvoisin
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Postby Malvoisin » Thu Aug 07, 2008 7:35 pm

I have a question to... Why have you got your gamberson (if that's what it is) on over your hauberk? :?

For more information go *here*. A nice lite introduction to the Hospitallers by Jonathan Riley-Smith. (he's the Librarian of the Order of Saint John so he might know what he's on about.)


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Zachos
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Postby Zachos » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:05 pm

I believe he's going for Aketon/Gambeson combo. One under, one over the maille.

While not my period of study, I wonder whether the padding is giving quite the right silhouette for that period? It seems very wide at the shoulders.


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Fox
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Postby Fox » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:07 am

Malvoisin wrote:I have a question to... Why have you got your gamberson (if that's what it is) on over your hauberk? :?


As Zachos sort of says there are plenty of illustrations with padding over maille [presumably also under it too].

Zachos wrote:While not my period of study, I wonder whether the padding is giving quite the right silhouette for that period? It seems very wide at the shoulders.

How would you ever know? Illustration of the period is so stylised and I can't image it's the sort of thing there are many [any?] finds for.

Not my period either, but can I ask, are you going for Knight or for confraternity?
[Are the Hospitallers operating a confraternity that far back?]



sabrewolfe
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Postby sabrewolfe » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:44 am

The shoulders are a bit of a work in progress I admit. The style im wearing is aketon, maille, gambeson. The gambeson originally looked like something out of one of the old flash gordon serials as it had really pointed shoulders. Im gradually shaping it to the way it should be, although I think I made the rows in the gambeson too wide and as a consiquence over stuffed it to the point where its about an inch thick! I have lots of pictures and sources for in and around twelve fifty apparently I should be wearing a cappa on top of all that. fortunately I have a smaller gambeson which may fit the bill better than the black monstrosity. Here is one of the pics im using as a guideline (yes I know its from an Osprey book but it looks similar to alot of carvings and descriptions elsewhere)
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1230 knight.jpg



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Mark Sanderson
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Postby Mark Sanderson » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:51 am

I don't doubt that you have researched the character to the best of your ability, however, further research may be to your advantage.

The cross on your shield should be a maltese cross, or similar.

Try this site http://www.knights-of-st-john.co.uk/ for further information.
Scroll down to Historic Articles, Texts and Pictures of the Order, click the icon, then click the icon for Section 4. Pictures.
Click on Costumes; Plate #16b - 12th & 13th Cent. Knights of St. John, and, Costume of Hospitaller & Templar Knights c1250, for examples of Hospitaller costume inspiration appropriate for your character.


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sabrewolfe
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Postby sabrewolfe » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:27 am

Ah was waiting to get pulled up on the shield; you see I got the shield off a mate before heading for tintagel it was actually red with a white cross so I hastily repainted the red bits before the battle (mighty strange looks were given to me in the camp site doing this). Repainting the cross is definately on the to do list as soon as I verrify exactly what cross should be on it. Cheers for the link much appreciated



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Colin MacDonald
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Postby Colin MacDonald » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:58 am

Malvoisin wrote:I have a question to... Why have you got your gamberson (if that's what it is) on over your hauberk? :?


Detail from Maciejowski Bible, Folio 10, Recto, top:

Image


Matthew Paris shows knights with pointy-shouldered surcoats. Conjecturally, that could be padded or rigid protection over the mail and under the surcoat.

Tomb effigies also clearly start showing something being worn over the mail and under the surcoat from around 1250 or so, although it's not clear what it is, other than that it's on the torso, and buckled at the side.

St Maurice seems be wearing an armoured surcoat or early coat of plates around 1250.

Circa 1250 seems to be about the time when a plethora of armours started being layered on top of mail. It's nice (IMHO) to see a variety of interpretations.



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Brother Ranulf
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Postby Brother Ranulf » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:12 pm

With all respect to Mark Sanderson, I am absolutely astonished that anyone would point to a Victorian fantasy print as a source of information on anything. Such costume prints (and there are hundreds in existence) come from poorly-researched "neo-Gothic" ideas about the medieval period and should be treated with due contempt.

The idea that the Hospitallers were wearing Maltese Crosses in the 12th century (as indicated by the print in question) is totally absurd; many other aspects of this particular source are unreliable and unsupported by any real evidence.

Look instead at wall paintings (if you can find E. W. Tristram's out-of-print book on 13th century wall paintings you will be doing well), books by A. J. Forey, E. J. King (whose "Rules, Statutes and Customs of the Hospitallers" should be treated as essential) and the studies by H. J. Nicholson. None of these draw on Victorian fantasy for their content.


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Fox
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Postby Fox » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:14 pm

sabrewolfe wrote:you see I got the shield off a mate before heading for tintagel


And very popular that design is in that part of the world. :wink: :D



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Postby Hobbitstomper » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:18 pm

You get pointy shoulders on a surcoat if you make the arm holes squareish with the sides and make it from thick linen. My lined surcoat has them.



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Colin MacDonald
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Postby Colin MacDonald » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:42 pm

Hobbitstomper wrote:You get pointy shoulders on a surcoat if you make the arm holes squareish with the sides and make it from thick linen. My lined surcoat has them.


Ah, my mistake. I was actually thinking of this image:

Image

What are the crosses attached to?

Again, I'm being very conjectural. ;)



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Postby Hobbitstomper » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:57 pm

2 speculative options:

Something rigid under the mail such as a hardened leather curie that you can see the edge of or

The mail itself. Using a rigid tripod type structure with 2 short legs (shown)on the arm/shoulder joint and one long arm on the top of the shoulder. This will keep the surcoat off the mail a bit and encourage air flow. A cool knight is a happy knight.



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Colin MacDonald
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Postby Colin MacDonald » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:11 pm

Hobbitstomper wrote:Something rigid under the mail such as a hardened leather curie that you can see the edge of or


Thanks, I'm printing this quote off and using it as provenance for my speculative hardened leather curie. ;)


Hobbitstomper wrote:The mail itself. Using a rigid tripod type structure with 2 short legs (shown)on the arm/shoulder joint and one long arm on the top of the shoulder. This will keep the surcoat off the mail a bit and encourage air flow. A cool knight is a happy knight.


Mmm, maybe. It's certainly the case that stiff padding, worn by itself, helps with air flow, but putting mail over padding effectively squishes it down. Does air flow over the mail really do much?

Interesting thing to try though, thanks for the suggestion.



sabrewolfe
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Postby sabrewolfe » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:07 am

Well I modified the shield to the correct cross (i hope) and gave it another coat of paint to make it look better. What do you reckon folks.

Got the cappa made just need too finish the cross decal for the chest which is being a total pain in the bum too make.
Attachments
IMAGE_00004.jpg
Redone shield



mac (crucesignati)

Postby mac (crucesignati) » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:43 pm

sabrewolfe wrote:Well I modified the shield to the correct cross (i hope) and gave it another coat of paint to make it look better. What do you reckon folks.

Got the cappa made just need too finish the cross decal for the chest which is being a total pain in the bum too make.


I did my cross for my Templar kit and found it easier to make the cross in two seperate pieces - stitch one 'arm' to the garment and then the other over the first but obviously 90 degrees different. Looks like a single cross to the viewer.

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Colin Middleton
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Postby Colin Middleton » Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:03 pm

Mac, that's what I was planning to do for my heraldry (engrailed saltir) when I next made a surcoat. It's too sensible a way to use fabric to imagine that they didn't do that.

Colin, I'd interpreted it as a leather support too. One of our members has sugested wiring the arm-hole to stop it snagging on your arm, but I favour the leather. I'm sceptical of the 'tripod', it sounds like it should fall off your shoulder.

You see lots of pictures of gambeson over mail at this period. One of our members tried it a few years back and said that it works great.

Saberwolfe, the only concern that I would have with your shoulders in that gambeson is that it appears to stick out too far. They did stick out over the shoulders and may even rise in a point, but yours just appears to stand out too far, too low on your arm joint. Does it impeed your fighting at all?


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sabrewolfe
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Postby sabrewolfe » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:12 pm

no not in the slightest, most peoples complaint is that im too well armoured too feel most hits or if someone is being especially pedantic and aiming for under my armpit it is very very hard to get in on me.

Tried out the monks cappa and aketon gambeson combo there at training on sunday. Need to do a few mods like use a thinner gambeson and a shorter one but it works great its also quite decptive as i look like a fat monk wearing no armour. Its also handy as I can just wear it as non combat kit as well by taking of my armour underneath it.



mac (crucesignati)

Postby mac (crucesignati) » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:32 pm

Mind be stating what everyone else knows again, so ignore it if I am - but the first few items I made I would make the shoulder line at the same height as the top of the armhole. This gave the pointed shoulder effect. So I now make the top of the shoulder hole a few inches lower than the neckline and this gets rid of that point.

From what I can make out about padding worn under/over maille there has always been a dispute on whether an aketon was worn over or under armour and a gambeson on the other. Or are they just different names for the same garment? Aketon apparently comes from the arabic for 'of cotton' (Al Qutum?) referring to its stuffing - can't remember the reference where I picked that from



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Brother Ranulf
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Postby Brother Ranulf » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:42 pm

That question could spark another heated debate.

Some people see aketon and gambeson as essentially the same thing - a padded layer under armour. Gambeson is originally Germanic, Aketon Arabic as you say.

Others maintain that the quilting is different: one has vertical "tubes" of stuffing, the other has diamond-shaped panels of quilting.

Others say that one goes under armour, one goes over.

There are other variations . . .

The thing is that all of these are opinions, with no way of proving or disproving them.


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sabrewolfe
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Postby sabrewolfe » Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:28 pm

ok well got the cappa made and am nearly finsihed the smaller gambeson that will happily fit under this ok very crappy webcam image but the cappa is huge. Tiny could happily wear it so there will be room for lots of armour under it.

Personally I find the aketon maille gambeson combo gives alot of protection the aketon provides padding for my arms and chest and makes the mail sit more comfortably on me. Then the gambeson on top of the chain gives a high level of protection to my body core I have gotten a few almighty clatters from polish lads who too put it mildly were insane and fans of "full contact" combat, im convinced id have a rack of busted ribs if not for this layering. Anyway this picture is not great but it gives an idea of how im getting on. Opinions please?
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webcappa.JPG




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