Animal Tails

[Fox]

Does anyone have a tame Latin scholar locked in their basement?

I can translate enough to tell you that he always displayed a fox's tail above his forces (and here's the interesting bit) for it's uplifting effect. [I think I have that right].

[Fox]

:wink:

I wonder what this symbol means?

Perhaps it's that we live in different centuries and contexts...

[Colin MacDonald]

:wink:

I wonder what this symbol means?

Perhaps it's that we live in different centuries and contexts...

Since I consider myself to be a before-my-times refugee from the Star Trek documentaries, I can only hope that you primitives catch up and evolve beyond the need for stone age communication techniques. In the 23th century, nobody will be using smilies.

>>> <<<

Does anyone have a tame Latin scholar locked in their basement?

I can translate enough to tell you that he always displayed a fox's tail above his forces (and here's the interesting bit) for it's uplifting effect. [I think I have that right].

Great, thanks. It does seem to be at least implicit that this is an actual fox tail, as opposed to the "signo" of Warwick's bear and Arundel's horse, yes?

[Fox]

Great, thanks. It does seem to be at least implicit that this is an actual fox tail, as opposed to the "signo" of Warwick's bear and Arundel's horse, yes?

I'm not sure.

He uses the odd phrase "Vulpes cum cauda": fox with a tail

Vulpes cum cauda caveat, dum cantat alauda: The fox with a tail keeps watch until the lark sings.

But then later just cauda vulpis: fox's tail.

Then it gets to be quite a complex piece of latin, with lots of sub clauses, and even a gerundive, something about larks, the morning and "must make an attack", I think.

[Glorfindle]

Those Scout/Stargazer Chairs are another example of B***cks being passed off as authentic.

Just out of interest, what do these look like??

[Jim]

Those Scout/Stargazer Chairs are another example of B***cks being passed off as authentic.

Just out of interest, what do these look like??

I think they're the two-piece chairs where the seat slots into the back, kinda looks like a deckchair.

Vaguely like this:



Basically they're African and completely wang for English WOTR.

[Glorfindle]

ooooh.....

I better get rid of our lot then.....

You know, its something that i have never actually questioned the authenticity off. My bad.

[Brother Ranulf]

Colin - have PMd you with a translation.

[Fox]

Colin - have PMd you with a translation.

Ah, a man who has kept his latin more up to scratch, and probably armed with a dictionary, should he have needed one.

Any chance, for my own pleasure if nothing else, that you might simply post the translation?

[Brother Ranulf]

Colin PMd me in the first instance, requesting the translation as I have not been watching this thread. My response has been stuck in the outbox for some time, so it seems sensible to post it here as well.

I wrote:

Colin, first the very short extract:

"The Fox with its tail is celebrated in song when the lark sings
Indeed the little voice of the farm animal is captured by speed, even the horse"

This obviously sounds a tad peculiar and may be some early misreporting.

The much longer section reads:

"And he was filled then with devising prophesies, composed as poetry, and made known over a period of ten years; such as:

'The Fox with its tail is wary, while the lark sings
Indeed the grasping farm animal is at the same time predated, even the horse'.

"The Fox with a tail" he called the Duke, who always had a fox's tail carried in his presence above his army.
"While the lark sings", he said of the one who in the morning was captivated by the song of the lark, just as he himself was captured; He who is taken and threatened as the sudden snatching of a farm animal, that is The Earl of Warwick; and of a horse - that is the Earl of Arundel; who either bore the sign of a bear, or a horse."

The reference here to a foxtail super hostem seems to indicate some kind of personal badge, standard or field-sign to indicate the Duke's position on the battlefield - not something worn by anyone.

Hope this helps

[Colin MacDonald]

Super, thanks for that Brother Ranulf.

It does seem (to me) rather likely that it's a real tail, rather than a device. I'm happy to have learned something today.

Now, I wonder if we can turn up some references for the use of tails by individual soldiers, or whether that'll remain speculative.

[Colin Middleton]

Osprey Men-At-Arms, The Armies of Agincourt.

I can't see a reference to a source, and don't have this book to check.

Pennies to pounds it's an heraldic device that's been misinterpreted - presumably Henry IV didn't actually tote around a white antelope and a swan as well as his "fox tail dependent" - but I'll be fascinated to see a credible source for it, or for the Wallace claim.

Even so, it's nice to see a source for it, even if we then don't agree with the source!

On the Secret Middle Ages reference, I recall looking at that some months back and noting that while the fox tail has lots of meanings in Germany, there's a completely different concept of them mentioned in more western areas. I'll take another look tonight.

[Colin Middleton]

On the Secret Middle Ages reference, I recall looking at that some months back and noting that while the fox tail has lots of meanings in Germany, there's a completely different concept of them mentioned in more western areas. I'll take another look tonight.

I took a dig through the book last night and found the bits that originally set me wondering. All of the specifically listed erotic mentions of foxes tails are traced to German origins, where the fox tail is called a "rute" or "rod", with it's obviously phalic association. The only English references (as most of us portray the English, this is obviously my primary area of interest) are the bum role discribed above, several references to fools costume in chapter 6 and that it's English name was "Brush" or "Drag" This seems to lack the phalic link of the German stuff, and imply a different association, though I'm uncertain as to what that might be.

[Hobbitstomper]

A bit of pointless speculation but a "fox with a tail" hasn't had it bitten off by a pack of dogs (or cut off by a game keeper) so could signify someone who was cunning or wary.

[John Waller]

Anyway at Blore the first bloody person I saw in kit was wearing one!
Historical accuracy aside I think Trinny and Suzanna would say 'don't darling, it just draws attention to your fat *rse!'.

Several more in evidence - one archer even sporting two.

Sort it out FED please.

Off topic but stargazer chairs and a green scout tent on the period camp. Why?

[Jim]

Off topic but stargazer chairs and a green scout tent on the period camp. Why?

Ah yes I spotted those. I'm developing an irrational hatred of those chairs!

[Dave B]

My three year old was fascinated by 'why do those ladies have tails'.

[the real lord duvet]

Off topic but stargazer chairs and a green scout tent on the period camp. Why?

Ah yes I spotted those. I'm developing an irrational hatred of those chairs!

being pedantic but its not a scout tent. it used to be a scout tent but as it is no longer owned or used by the scout movement now its a green reinectment tent or an ex-scout tent.

if they just cut the poles slightly shorter it would juts be an unfortunately coloured tent

[Hinny Annie]

My three year old was fascinated by 'why do those ladies have tails'.

She was also fascinated by the 'poo wagon' as 3 yr olds do

[Fox]

My three year old was fascinated by 'why do those ladies have tails'.

She was also fascinated by the 'poo wagon' as 3 yr olds do

Oh, yes. I regularly hear her announcing it's arrival.

[lucy the tudor]

What's a stargazer chair please?
Lucy

[Jim]

What's a stargazer chair please?
Lucy

[lucy the tudor]

Aaah, one of them, thank you !

I always liked those, they are really comfortable and don't take a lot of making- what's wrong with them then?
Not authentic?
Ugly?
Easy to trip over after a night in the beer tent?

Thinking on I don't remember seeing any in any old paintings or source material...

Lucy

[Colin Middleton]

Thinking on I don't remember seeing any in any old paintings or source material...

Lucy

Correct, they're reckoned to be of modern African origin.

[Marcus Woodhouse]

I always find the floor a good place to sit, with the extra advantage that no-one can swipe it from beneath me while i'm not looking.

[guthrie]

The group I was there with had some stargazer chairs, I've pointed out their complete unauthenticity, and if they still have them during open hours next year i shall have to have a bonfire

I'm sure the Fed would also welcome any sensible attempts to bring their kit guide up to modern standards, so volunteers form a queue...

[lucy the tudor]

Thanks for that chaps, I was going to use some down time this winter to research those a bit more, with a view to making some to sell. Now I know, I obviously won't waste the time on research. Nor of course will I make them .No point in perpetuating a reenactorism .
Lucy

[John Waller]

I've pointed out their complete unauthenticity

Make that un.

[Fox]

I've pointed out their complete unauthenticity

Make that un.

[Edited to prove my point below]

[Mad Mab]

I've pointed out their complete unauthenticity

Make that un.

In his original post, he pointed out their complete authenticity. He has since, very sneakily, changed it.