Animal Tails

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Fox
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Postby Fox » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:51 pm

Colin MacDonald wrote: Does anyone have a tame Latin scholar locked in their basement?


I can translate enough to tell you that he always displayed a fox's tail above his forces (and here's the interesting bit) for it's uplifting effect. [I think I have that right].



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Fox
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Postby Fox » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:52 pm

Dave B wrote:
Fox wrote::wink:


I wonder what this symbol means?


Perhaps it's that we live in different centuries and contexts... :D



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Postby Colin MacDonald » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:28 pm

Fox wrote:
Dave B wrote:
Fox wrote::wink:


I wonder what this symbol means?


Perhaps it's that we live in different centuries and contexts... :D


Since I consider myself to be a before-my-times refugee from the Star Trek documentaries, I can only hope that you primitives catch up and evolve beyond the need for stone age communication techniques. In the 23th century, nobody will be using smilies.

>>> ;) <<<


Fox wrote:
Colin MacDonald wrote: Does anyone have a tame Latin scholar locked in their basement?


I can translate enough to tell you that he always displayed a fox's tail above his forces (and here's the interesting bit) for it's uplifting effect. [I think I have that right].


Great, thanks. It does seem to be at least implicit that this is an actual fox tail, as opposed to the "signo" of Warwick's bear and Arundel's horse, yes?


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Postby Fox » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:27 pm

Colin MacDonald wrote:Great, thanks. It does seem to be at least implicit that this is an actual fox tail, as opposed to the "signo" of Warwick's bear and Arundel's horse, yes?


I'm not sure.

He uses the odd phrase "Vulpes cum cauda": fox with a tail

Vulpes cum cauda caveat, dum cantat alauda: The fox with a tail keeps watch until the lark sings.

But then later just cauda vulpis: fox's tail.

Then it gets to be quite a complex piece of latin, with lots of sub clauses, and even a gerundive, something about larks, the morning and "must make an attack", I think.



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Postby Glorfindle » Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:59 am

Lady Cecily wrote:Those Scout/Stargazer Chairs are another example of B***cks being passed off as authentic.


Just out of interest, what do these look like??


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Postby Jim » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:05 am

Glorfindle wrote:
Lady Cecily wrote:Those Scout/Stargazer Chairs are another example of B***cks being passed off as authentic.


Just out of interest, what do these look like??


I think they're the two-piece chairs where the seat slots into the back, kinda looks like a deckchair.

Vaguely like this:

Image

Basically they're African and completely wang for English WOTR.


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Postby Glorfindle » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:22 pm

ooooh.....

I better get rid of our lot then..... :oops:

You know, its something that i have never actually questioned the authenticity off. My bad.


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Postby Brother Ranulf » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:26 pm

Colin - have PMd you with a translation.


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Postby Fox » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:11 pm

Brother Ranulf wrote:Colin - have PMd you with a translation.


Ah, a man who has kept his latin more up to scratch, and probably armed with a dictionary, should he have needed one.

Any chance, for my own pleasure if nothing else, that you might simply post the translation?



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Postby Brother Ranulf » Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:12 am

Colin PMd me in the first instance, requesting the translation as I have not been watching this thread. My response has been stuck in the outbox for some time, so it seems sensible to post it here as well.

I wrote:

Colin, first the very short extract:

"The Fox with its tail is celebrated in song when the lark sings
Indeed the little voice of the farm animal is captured by speed, even the horse"

This obviously sounds a tad peculiar and may be some early misreporting.

The much longer section reads:

"And he was filled then with devising prophesies, composed as poetry, and made known over a period of ten years; such as:

'The Fox with its tail is wary, while the lark sings
Indeed the grasping farm animal is at the same time predated, even the horse'.

"The Fox with a tail" he called the Duke, who always had a fox's tail carried in his presence above his army.
"While the lark sings", he said of the one who in the morning was captivated by the song of the lark, just as he himself was captured; He who is taken and threatened as the sudden snatching of a farm animal, that is The Earl of Warwick; and of a horse - that is the Earl of Arundel; who either bore the sign of a bear, or a horse."

The reference here to a foxtail super hostem seems to indicate some kind of personal badge, standard or field-sign to indicate the Duke's position on the battlefield - not something worn by anyone.

Hope this helps


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Postby Colin MacDonald » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:23 am

Super, thanks for that Brother Ranulf.

It does seem (to me) rather likely that it's a real tail, rather than a device. I'm happy to have learned something today.

Now, I wonder if we can turn up some references for the use of tails by individual soldiers, or whether that'll remain speculative.


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Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:55 pm

Colin MacDonald wrote:Osprey Men-At-Arms, The Armies of Agincourt.

I can't see a reference to a source, and don't have this book to check.

Pennies to pounds it's an heraldic device that's been misinterpreted - presumably Henry IV didn't actually tote around a white antelope and a swan as well as his "fox tail dependent" - but I'll be fascinated to see a credible source for it, or for the Wallace claim.


Even so, it's nice to see a source for it, even if we then don't agree with the source!

On the Secret Middle Ages reference, I recall looking at that some months back and noting that while the fox tail has lots of meanings in Germany, there's a completely different concept of them mentioned in more western areas. I'll take another look tonight.


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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:On the Secret Middle Ages reference, I recall looking at that some months back and noting that while the fox tail has lots of meanings in Germany, there's a completely different concept of them mentioned in more western areas. I'll take another look tonight.


I took a dig through the book last night and found the bits that originally set me wondering. All of the specifically listed erotic mentions of foxes tails are traced to German origins, where the fox tail is called a "rute" or "rod", with it's obviously phalic association. The only English references (as most of us portray the English, this is obviously my primary area of interest) are the bum role discribed above, several references to fools costume in chapter 6 and that it's English name was "Brush" or "Drag" This seems to lack the phalic link of the German stuff, and imply a different association, though I'm uncertain as to what that might be.


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Postby Hobbitstomper » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:26 pm

A bit of pointless speculation but a "fox with a tail" hasn't had it bitten off by a pack of dogs (or cut off by a game keeper) so could signify someone who was cunning or wary.



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Postby John Waller » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:37 pm

Anyway at Blore the first bloody person I saw in kit was wearing one!
Historical accuracy aside I think Trinny and Suzanna would say 'don't darling, it just draws attention to your fat *rse!'.

Several more in evidence - one archer even sporting two.

Sort it out FED please.

Off topic but stargazer chairs and a green scout tent on the period camp. Why?


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Postby Jim » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:46 pm

John Waller wrote:Off topic but stargazer chairs and a green scout tent on the period camp. Why?


Ah yes I spotted those. I'm developing an irrational hatred of those chairs!


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Postby Dave B » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:31 pm

My three year old was fascinated by 'why do those ladies have tails'.


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Postby the real lord duvet » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:28 pm

Jim wrote:
John Waller wrote:Off topic but stargazer chairs and a green scout tent on the period camp. Why?


Ah yes I spotted those. I'm developing an irrational hatred of those chairs!


being pedantic but its not a scout tent. it used to be a scout tent but as it is no longer owned or used by the scout movement now its a green reinectment tent or an ex-scout tent.

if they just cut the poles slightly shorter it would juts be an unfortunately coloured tent



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Postby Hinny Annie » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:22 pm

Dave B wrote:My three year old was fascinated by 'why do those ladies have tails'.


She was also fascinated by the 'poo wagon' as 3 yr olds do


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Postby Fox » Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:21 am

Hinny Annie wrote:
Dave B wrote:My three year old was fascinated by 'why do those ladies have tails'.


She was also fascinated by the 'poo wagon' as 3 yr olds do


Oh, yes. I regularly hear her announcing it's arrival.



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Postby lucy the tudor » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:14 pm

What's a stargazer chair please?
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Postby Jim » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:41 pm

lucy the tudor wrote:What's a stargazer chair please?
Lucy


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Postby lucy the tudor » Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:52 pm

Aaah, one of them, thank you !

I always liked those, they are really comfortable and don't take a lot of making- what's wrong with them then?
Not authentic?
Ugly?
Easy to trip over after a night in the beer tent?

Thinking on I don't remember seeing any in any old paintings or source material...

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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:10 pm

lucy the tudor wrote:Thinking on I don't remember seeing any in any old paintings or source material...

Lucy


Correct, they're reckoned to be of modern African origin.


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Postby Marcus Woodhouse » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:23 pm

I always find the floor a good place to sit, with the extra advantage that no-one can swipe it from beneath me while i'm not looking. :evil:


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Postby guthrie » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:32 pm

The group I was there with had some stargazer chairs, I've pointed out their complete unauthenticity, and if they still have them during open hours next year i shall have to have a bonfire :twisted:

I'm sure the Fed would also welcome any sensible attempts to bring their kit guide up to modern standards, so volunteers form a queue...



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Postby lucy the tudor » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:15 pm

Thanks for that chaps, I was going to use some down time this winter to research those a bit more, with a view to making some to sell. Now I know, I obviously won't waste the time on research. Nor of course will I make them .No point in perpetuating a reenactorism .
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Postby John Waller » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:23 pm

guthrie wrote: I've pointed out their complete unauthenticity


Make that un.


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Postby Fox » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:17 am

John Waller wrote:
guthrie wrote: I've pointed out their complete unauthenticity


Make that un.


:?:

[Edited to prove my point below]
Last edited by Fox on Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Postby Mad Mab » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:08 am

Fox wrote:
John Waller wrote:
guthrie wrote: I've pointed out their complete unauthenticity


Make that un.


:?:


In his original post, he pointed out their complete authenticity. He has since, very sneakily, changed it. :lol:


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