Combat Archer

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Jim
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Postby Jim » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:05 pm

zauberdachs wrote:
Fox wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:Standard for men should be around about 50lb apparently but re-enactment events usually set a low standard for safety. This is what I was after. Thanks though.


50lbs is also fine for re-enactments too; there are many in use.
I'd chose whatever poundage you are comfortable drawing.


really? Cool. What requirements do you set for archers at Tatton out of interest?


Heh I remember being in the shieldwall at Tatton, being flat-shot at. That was fun. Have photos of arrows pinging off me shield. :O)


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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:09 pm

Jim wrote:Heh I remember being in the shieldwall at Tatton, being flat-shot at. That was fun. Have photos of arrows pinging off me shield. :O)


hmmm.... additional motivation to get it all together ASAP :twisted: ;)


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Postby Fox » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:19 pm

zauberdachs wrote:
Fox wrote:
zauberdachs wrote:Standard for men should be around about 50lb apparently but re-enactment events usually set a low standard for safety. This is what I was after. Thanks though.


50lbs is also fine for re-enactments too; there are many in use.
I'd chose whatever poundage you are comfortable drawing.


really? Cool. What requirements do you set for archers at Tatton out of interest?


You'll need to talk to Eric, assuming he's able to be my Captain of Archery.

You'll especially need to talk to him if you're a beginner, he'll check you're competent and possibly buddy you up with someone. You may not be allowed to shot in the flat shoot as a newbie; that will be at his discretion.



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Postby zauberdachs » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:27 pm

fair dos


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Postby Jim » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:30 pm

zauberdachs wrote:
Jim wrote:Heh I remember being in the shieldwall at Tatton, being flat-shot at. That was fun. Have photos of arrows pinging off me shield. :O)


hmmm.... additional motivation to get it all together ASAP :twisted: ;)


...unless I'm in the Archery squad this time. I've got me bow 'n' all. Just need some blunts and some training at the boot camp.


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Postby Dave B » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:35 pm

Fox wrote:You'll need to talk to Eric, assuming he's able to be my Captain of Archery.


And learn to hum the theme tune from 'The archers'.

Eric prefixes every command to the archery block with a shout of 'ARCHERS' and it's very funny when they all start humming the theme tune.


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Postby Jim » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:44 pm

Just out of interest, do we have any Archers named Jeffrey?


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Postby gregory23b » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:57 pm

Is there not a poundage limit for shooting at people??
Used to be 30-35lb.


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Postby guthrie » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:08 pm

gregory23b wrote:Is there not a poundage limit for shooting at people??
Used to be 30-35lb.

DEpends on the group etc. My original start was WoTR, and we did not, as far as I can recall, allow more than 40lb on the field.



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Postby Phil the Grips » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:38 pm

30-35lbs is average though there are some exceptions and variations. My Tudor group doesn't shoot at people so go as big as individuals are comfortable with.

Hastings allowed 50lbers+ as the arrows wouldn't even get close to the Saxon line from the bottom of the hill, for example, if anything less was used.


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Postby gregory23b » Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:29 pm

"Hastings allowed 50lbers+ as the arrows wouldn't even get close to the Saxon line from the bottom of the hill, for example, if anything less was used."

harrumph my 30 lber managed it ok, the only problem was the headwind we had which meant we had to step up closer, otherwise not an issue. IIRc I was one of the few people that nearly got hit by one of the saxons, an arrow landed about two inches from my big toe, such was the tailwind that even in our quite rearward position it carried.

There should be no need for bows above 35 lb to be used against other people. In the same way that metal weapons have some sort of standard, for obvious reasons, then bows and the use of should have the same. The parallel is sharps and blunts, except that the attention to blunts is apparently more rigorous.

Wasn't all that long ago that we would have chucked someone off the field for an over weight bow. The issue, apart from an increased amount of damage from a 50lb - lethal with sharps - is the immediate reaction that were someone to be injured with an arrow those with higher poundage bows would be suspected, rightly or wrongly.

I admit to some concern at the apparent range of draw weights. Also who checks the draw weights?


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Postby Colin Middleton » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:17 pm

Just a thought on something missed out of the "this is what I need/got list", you didn't mention gauntlets. Lots of groups require gauntlets for fighting on the field. If you're wearing glvoes under them, you don't need archers tabs as you've already got your gloves :D . You may want gauntlets that you can 'slip on' so you don't need to wear them when shooting.

I'd also recomend a good jack if you're planning on fighting, keeps the bruising down.

Good luck


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Postby zauberdachs » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:22 pm

Colin Middleton wrote:Just a thought on something missed out of the "this is what I need/got list", you didn't mention gauntlets. Lots of groups require gauntlets for fighting on the field. If you're wearing glvoes under them, you don't need archers tabs as you've already got your gloves :D . You may want gauntlets that you can 'slip on' so you don't need to wear them when shooting.

I'd also recomend a good jack if you're planning on fighting, keeps the bruising down.

Good luck


zauberdachs wrote: I've got from my kit already:

Jack


Been doing combat for years now, it's the archery kit I'm interested in or how combat kit relates to archery. Thanks though ;)


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Postby StaffordCleggy » Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:08 pm

Just as an excercise, how exactly would we go about measuring the drawweight of a re-enactment bow at an event?

Would we have to have them tested somewhere & then certified?

How would we get all the relevant umbrella organisations to agree on a common poundage?

If we cannot (as seems likely) agree to the above, do we just go on the say-so of the owner of the bow? If that is the case, then how to deal with the bloke who says "Of course my bow's under the 40lb limit Guv'nor".

*Mine was rated at 60lb when new, probably more like 50-55lb now. I've never used it on the field & may never do so. Only bought it to play with.


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Postby gregory23b » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:40 pm

There was a time when it was agreed that 35lb was the maximum draw weight for anyone who wanted to shoot at people, ideally 30lb.

In those days you had more bows like Ron Palmer's, not authentic but he measured his draw weights and marked the bow accordingly, I had a 63lb and a 37lb.

Any respectable bowyer should be able to supply bows at the requisite draw and if necessary have them independently measured.

It all boils down to if people want to be responsible or not, having nearly shot the eye out of someone (an old Stafford as it happened) and seen my fair share of face shots, I could not be happy knowing that some idiot couldn't give a crap about anyone else. I apply the same principle to any weapon and as long as people forget that bows are in fact weapons then this laissez faire attitude will continue. It is a downright shame that archery is seen as some old folks' home for people rather than a significant and possibly equally as dangerous aspect to the hobby.


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Postby The Methley Archer » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:48 am

Cleggy,

You can get bow scales, all you do is pull as normal with the scales attached and it measures the poundage, itn takes seconds. This could be carried out at the same time as a sharps check before entering the field.


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Postby Laffin Jon Terris » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:56 am

gregory23b wrote: It is a downright shame that archery is seen as some old folks' home for people rather than a significant and possibly equally as dangerous aspect to the hobby.


:twisted: If my daughter sends me to that home when I'm past-it I'll be a happy man! :twisted:


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Postby Dave B » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:06 am

We've talked before about clubbing together and buying some old stately pile as a re-enactors only old peoples home.

Zimmer frame jousting on the lawn and all that.


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Postby Jim » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:20 am

Dave B wrote:We've talked before about clubbing together and buying some old stately pile as a re-enactors only old peoples home.

Zimmer frame jousting on the lawn and all that.


Funnily enough, the government now allows you to invest your pension into property and still get all the tax benefits as if the cash were still in your pension fund. So that might not be such a bad idea!

Get everyone to transfer part of their pension into a mortgage on said stately pile, then they're guaranteed a place when they retire :)


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Postby zauberdachs » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:29 am

Jim wrote:
Dave B wrote:We've talked before about clubbing together and buying some old stately pile as a re-enactors only old peoples home.

Zimmer frame jousting on the lawn and all that.


Funnily enough, the government now allows you to invest your pension into property and still get all the tax benefits as if the cash were still in your pension fund. So that might not be such a bad idea!

Get everyone to transfer part of their pension into a mortgage on said stately pile, then they're guaranteed a place when they retire :)


hmmm.... you should start that as a new thread. That's not a bad idea :)


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Postby Nigel » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:43 am

At university a group of us looked at buying a Victorian mansion it would ahve cost us each £9k

It came up over dinner at Easter we ahd all forgotten about it so much nashing of teeth followed


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Postby Yeoman » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:16 pm

I have done a bit of archery at WOTR events and would definitely recommend some gloves,
I got my shooting gloves from a gardening place for about £2, they are just soft leather gardening gloves,
I removed the modern stitching on the back and they look absolutely fine till you get close enough to see the machine stitching but this isnt a problem on the field or when doing a shooting display...
You tend to find yourself shooting not only yours and your own groups arrows but other groups arrows picked up on the battle field to shoot back at the "enemy"...
As "group" arrows can sometines get a little shall we say "neglected" at times, wearing gloves really lowers the chance of a loose feather or a splinter sticking through your grip hand when you loose...
I would like to get some authentic hand made gloves but I havent seen any better than the ones I adapted from the gardening gloves to date...
Last edited by Yeoman on Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Postby John Waller » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:35 pm

Yeoman wrote:I have done a bit of archery at WOTR events and would definitely recommend some gloves,
I got my shooting gloves from a gardening place for about £2, they are just soft leather gardening gloves,
I removed the modern stitching on the back and they look absolutely fine till you get close enough to see the machine stitching but this isnt a problem on the field or when doing a shooting display...
You tend to find yourself shooting not only yours and your own groups arrows but other groups arrows picked up on the battle field to shoot back at the "enemy"...
As "group" arrows can sometines get a little shall we say "neglected" at times, wearing gloves really lowers the change of a loose feather or a splinter sticking through your grip hand when you loose...
I would like to get some authentic hand made gloves but I havent seen any better than the ones I adapted from the gardening gloves to date...



Agreed. Wear a glove on your bow hand. A loose fletching through the flesh can be most painful. Alternatively make a leather band to fit round your hand with a hole for your thumb to protect the top of your bow hand. If you can't make one I think Phil Fraser sells them for a couple of quid.


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Postby gregory23b » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:08 pm

"I would like to get some authentic hand made gloves but I havent seen any better than the ones I adapted from the gardening gloves to date..."

really?

http://www.karlrobinson.co.uk/other_stuff_gloves.php

Nothing like gardening gloves, however, you do get what you pay for.

The mittens are not too hard to make as the pattern is on the web, but Karl's stuff is superb.


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Postby Yeoman » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:16 pm

MMM...

Nice...

Not sure I could warrant the cost... although I know a lot of work and sewing goes into gloves...

I have big hands so would have to have them made special I think...

My current ones look like much the ones you can see on www.wilkinsonsplus.com for £3.99... Though with the modern cuffs, obvious modern stitching and labels removed...

(See "Wilko Garden Gloves Leather Mens" on the above site for an idea.)..

You really have to be within 4 feet to see the stitching so when I go back to camp etc (where the public are much closer and enquiring) I just put them away or tuck them into my belt in a way that no stitching shows...

They look too new and white in the wilkinsons picture but if you mucky them up and really use them in the garden etc a bit they look proper enough...

For newbies or people on a budget they are ok (I think) as long as you obey the 6 foot rule and dont let the public too close to them...

I am tempted to get some hand made ones though..or at least just one hand made one for my left hand to prevent loosing injuries...

You wouldnt think a feather could cause a serious injury but I have heard several stories of peoples hands being pierced and injured badly... Hand injuries hurt more as well as there are more nerve endings in your hands...plus they take longer to heal as your hands are always moving...

I seem to be descending into waffle...sorry...


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Postby Tod » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:49 am

I made my own right hand glove and it took me two weeks, and I do leatherwork for a (second) living! The problem is getting a good fit and getting a good pattern. The left will be even more work, but after my last time out with a bow in the cold it's a must the top of my hand was red raw.



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Postby Type16 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:53 am

When we needed some very thin leather archery gloves for our daughter, the only thing that I could get that was 'tactile' was thin leather horse riding gloves -- but they were too pale in colour.

Solution was to soak them in cold pre-boiled tea bags ---- 40+ ---- and it really looks good!


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Postby Colin Middleton » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:57 pm

Too pale? Weren't the best gloves tawed with alum until they were white?


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Postby Type16 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:44 pm

Know what you mean, but the modern tanning just looked too wrong.


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Postby Stephen Dobson / Rab » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:56 am

Well Ben, if I don't fancy wearing my armour on the Sunday at Tatton then we could shoot together if they'd let us :lol:

I've found it quite straightforward to shoot in my gambeson and white rose 'Archer's' brig, so 'combat archery' may be a go at some point in the future 8)




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